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I just got that bumper/fender for justin, I can vouch he was looking far and wide. We are 250mi apart...

C4 Post from above - " it's made with proven 2-rows of 1.0" tubes that is proven to out cool 3-row and 4-row radiators by a substantial amount. " If you can run this, why does the rows matter? Why is it a 30 point difference? If you can cool any car that races this series with a 2 Row, why make guys that already have a 3 row purchased, buy a replacement? This adds cost for no reason!

Tires can ruin ones budget as they are a repeating purchase, a rad does not... fickle fickle

A rule on the basic size and cost would do that. The size is what overwhelmingly controls the performance. The extra rows and number of passes etc make very minor differences. The size would be very hard to enforce. But the cost cap would be easier. Thats exactly what the petition was actually. Somehow they came up with this number of rows idea. I’m not sure if it was the TAC or just the board that came up with it, but it wasn’t a member petition.

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Usually, that is more of a situation of where the inlets and outlets are on the core. If same side, it basically needs to be a 2 pass. Opposite sides could be 1 pass or 3 pass. From the experiences with my car, the number of passes doesn't make any difference when racing. The high rpms and constant heat load means that the water movement through the rad doesn't really matter if it is in their longer. Airflow is more important to support the delta t. I still understand your point and I'm still thinking of ways this could be addressed better (other than just not doing anything)

It’s tough. Some rads that have caps on the top are easy. Others you need to look at very closely. Others use an extrusion that appears to be a single row but is actually 10+ smaller ones. Your right about the cooling. That’s why this doesn’t make sense. The reason for multiple rows is so that they don’t balloon. When they were all made of brass, as the rad got deeper, the tubes got wider and started to balloon. This restricted airflow after a while. So they went with more tubes to stop that. With newer ones being made from aluminum, they are stronger, so a 2 row can be as wide as an older 4 row. Same basic cooling properties. Ive sent all this info to the BOD. I would have expected the TAC to point some of that out, but it appears they didn’t.

As a car approaching 250rwhp, our stock ford explorer aluminum core/plastic tank rad we pay(payed?) 5 pts for does a fine job, the only failures we have are driver induced....

How easy is it to spot the difference between 2 and 3 core? I haven’t a clue about my radiator. Also wouldn’t know what to look for. Also I fail to see how the number of cores, whatever that may be, affects cooling. Cooling will be determined by a function of total fin surface area and how easily air flows through it.

Combined BOD rulings and member submitted petitions PDF 2021ChampCarBOD-BCCR-Petitions.pdf

What about double and triple pass rads? They make a way bigger difference than the extra rows. Yet there’s no rule on them.

This discussion leads to the general discussion of if the rules are trying to be performance based or cost based. We left cost based when we went to the points system and got rid of the 2 x rules. Therefore, we are moving towards performance based. I can see this being a line in the sand that is furthering the performance rule based trend. I agree that it will have an negative impact on certain teams and possibly models of cars. However, I don't think anybody NEEDS a 3 or 4 row radiator unless putting out more than 300 hp. Even then, a larger radiator could be used to make up the capacity needed. So, the 2 sides of the coin... 1) this is a performance based rule that should impact a small minority of teams. (which I applaud) 2) there are ways around this rule, but that doesn't help the currently affected teams. What now?

My gripe with the bumper bars is if you make contact with another car you can get hooked and pull the bumper off the other car... example, the cutup pickup at Daytona cut over on my car in the west horseshoe and his bumper bar hooked in the RF wheel opening and ripped my new RF fender and bumper cover off, which on a Firebird is becoming hard finding decent replacements for... the part of the bumper going forward needs to be looped or something so they don't hook...

I’m putting 174hp to the wheels. I honestly didn’t even realize the one I bought was 3 row. Because at the time the rule was all aluminum rads were open. I understand that I could buy another rad but why? The metric doesn’t make any sense. I can buy a 2 row rad that is 6x the price I paid for the 3 row too.

How much horsepower are y'all putting out that you need a 3 core? I'm just curious. Not stirring the pot. I mean 300 hp doesn't need a 3 or 4 core. (Yes, I realize that the point is about the unexpected rule change and that the opinion is that it is I'll conceived)

I think it's funny a BOD member wanted a free skid plate for his oil pan while arguing accusumps should stay 10 points. There's some irony. BOD worried about runaway radiators while multi thousand dollar tire bills are hunky dory. Will cars that CAME WITH a 3 or 4 core radiator be able to replace with the same? One can't just pick up a Harrison from Autozone anymore and the local radiator shop closed up 20 years ago.

Chris, Im glad that you think constant rule changing, arbitrary lines drawn, and regularly screwing over your members with rules that are not properly researched and thought out is “funny”.

4 cores were not uncommon on V8's with AC. If you are lucky, you may still have a radiator shop nearby that can do a recore. Won't be cheap, but cheaper than a 2 core that can actually cool a V8. *Assuming we won't be hit with 30 points for a stock 3 or 4 core rad.... Would be nice if the TAC/BOD had someone that knows domestics a bit. This rad thing is a good example as is; "Oil pans were lowered to 20 points as they are used to cool oil like an oil cooler." Yeah, ok....

The top one is for a M3. Heres a stock 944 radiator for you. You think this guy is upset he can buy a cheaper radiator now? https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/porsche-radiator-944-924-11543003001#fitment Heres a C4 rad for $300 thats now free https://speedcooling.com/1984-1989-Corvette-C4-Aluminum-Radiator.html Everything is so different across different models. There's NEVER going to be a perfect rule that doesn't upset someone. Impossible. We can't stop you from going out and spending $1500 on a radiator. You could have done that last year, you can do that this year. You can also go spend $20k on a full motec setup, loom your harness with $10k worth of motorsport connectors, and pay a pit crew to come service your cars. And you will still probably get beat by a crapbox that came to the track behind a 25 year old RV running a stock radiator. Man, this is funny, seeing it from the other side. Normally I'm the guy bitching. As Ed says, the irony stings my eyes.

Cool! I like the Swedish colored paint job.

Mike! Glad you're back! See you this weekend at Autobahn!

It is all DOM tubing other then the plates and it weighs next to nothing, maybe 5 lbs total. The picture doesn't show it but it bent the rear frame tube and the bumper worked really well to protect the rest of the car and the BMW E30 it tangled with was out for the weekend. Not a good thing to see but the design worked well.

I really wish there was a practice day. It is also looking to be a hot one.

I know this is about 8 months late, but after this weekend I was ready to quit too. The car hasn't moved out of the trailer since we packed it in at Road America. The Camaro finally saw light about a month ago. After Road America I was upset at myself for my interaction with another driver on the track. I shared my apology on the Champcar Garage FB group, but the response I got wasn't what I was expecting and really surprised me. You can follow up here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/champcargarage/permalink/3482849335143600 Anyway, my co-owners eventually convinced me to stick with it, and race again. Side note, sorry to @Bill Strong I didn't make V2 of the roll cage program. I didn't want to look at anything related to CC racing, which I did successfully for over half a year. So sorry for such a late reply, but you are right. It is a bit depressing on the lack of replies here. And since I haven't been active here for a long time I thought I would be a tiny ray of sunshine!

E30 2 row rad - 0 points - $800 https://www.bimmerworld.com/C-R-Racing-E30-M3-Aluminum-Performance-Radiator.html Spec Miata rad. 2 row - 0 points - $839 https://offlineracing.com/categories/AWR-Competition-Radiators/Mazda-Miata/ Porsche 944 - 2 row - 0 points - $619 https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944RADBIL.html C4 - 2 row - 0 points - $689. https://www.zip-corvette.com/84-89-direct-fit-aluminum-radiator.html Seeing my point? Here’s the best part. Arguably the highest quality radiators out there , Ron Davis Radiators only use 2 row cores. So I can call them up and have them make me a $1500+ custom rad and it’ll be 0 points.