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Showing content with the highest reputation on 10/20/2020 in all areas

  1. See my response below. This is the way that I think and the way that I vote in regards to items when petitions come up. The VPI is set and the FPV is there so that teams can choose how they want to build their car. So I think everyone forgets that Tech has the ability to assign points per the BCCR. These are interpretations. As I mentioned before earlier in this thread that the Tech Desk was created so there were no more emails going through the system and there was a check and balance with TAC, BOD, and Tech being on the same page. Here is what the BCCR states: 4.4. NON FIXED POINT VALUE PARTS 4.4.1. ALL non-stock components, parts, assemblies, or systems MUST be declared to Tech Inspection, noted in the vehicle Logbook, and declared and accounted for in the total points of the vehicle. 4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech. 4.4.3. Any vehicle found with missing (groundoff) or tampered part numbers on any part or component will be immediately re-classified as EC. 4.4.4. All point values assigned by Tech Inspection will be considered valid until ChampCar’s Board of Directors assigns a fixed point value. So Tech has the ability to assign any value until it is voted on by the BOD. I brought up the coolant overflow item and it wasn't added to the BCCR as a carry over from the Tech Desk. I would have to look back to see if we had votes on it or not, but I thought it needed to be addressed to put in the BCCR. Any item that is points or was allowed in the series due to an interpretation should be voted on by the BOD so then it can go into the BCCR. I will also bring this topic back up that I started last year: Now we are an organization. We need to do a better job all around and we have faults. We all have day jobs except for two people in this company (Mike and Bill) as they do this full time. Remember our tech inspectors are all volunteers. Our event directors have other full times jobs. We are doing this to provide great racing and be the best amateur series out there to help feed the drug of racing. I am here to help make the organization better and try to continue to have parity within this organization. Feel free to reach out to me at any time to discuss any further.
    6 points
  2. Thanks Jerry! The problem isn't alternator per se. Its because a team basically asked for something for free and it was just handed to them. Why do we need to write a petition for something that wasn't petitioned to go into the rules? Why c ant we just follow the bccr? I didn't think rules could be made up (unless safety) without a petition.
    6 points
  3. It is a very small advantage. It isn’t the magnitude of the advantage that upsets people. The ChampCar rulebook has always stated (with documented exceptions), and the precedent all along has been: is it stock? Y —-> no points N —-> points It’s an extremely simple line in the sand and “it isn’t a big advantage” is a really stupid reason to cross that line.
    5 points
  4. In B4 the gaslighting: ”alternators have been free for years!” ”tons of teams use these alternators, you just haven’t seen them or haven’t asked if they are free” ”you should have asked, you can’t just assume that a non-OE part adds points (pay no attention to that rule behind the curtain that says there is no such thing as a free part)”
    5 points
  5. Jer this is totally incorrect statement in both cases, the mini race alternator can be seen from 100 ft and it is a change to performance. Spins easily and less weight and under driven pulley. Anything that changes any level of performance should be points.
    5 points
  6. Ummm.... why would somebody change it then? An obvious non stock alternator is not hard to tech. If it looks stock or stockish, fine. If it looks like a racing style alternator, points. This wasn't an issue until Riley showed up with one. Why make a new ruling because 1 team asked for it?
    5 points
  7. All this would be soooo much easier if we would just make it simple: OEM replacement - FREE OES replacement - FREE Aftermarket replacement that matches OEM / OES - FREE Aftermarket (not matching OE in form/fit/function) or Performance part replacement - POINTS Items that have little relative speed advantage - 5 pts ea. (radiator / alternator / coolers / accusump) Items that have more of a speed advantage 10 pts ea. (brakes / shocks / springs / FLARES) Fight over the relative point value, but stop giving more stuff away!!! How on earth a "budget" race series got to "FREE" 4 pot racing calipers I will never understand. The fact that the probability of rolling back the gravy train is very low is the very reason I would love to see a redo of the classes including two open and two "limited prep" - BEFORE we run off all those that don't want to just keep spending to keep up with more "FREE" stuff.
    5 points
  8. OK, I'll just come right out and say it - that was really dumb. You had this mostly unassuming thing sitting out there at 5 points that a team with 5 points to spare could look at and say "should I go with that fancy alternator or should I make myself some dive planes [or other helpful item that can be made with ~5 points of material]? Hmmm, decisions decisions..." Now everybody has to go out and buy a stupid expensive fancy alternator to keep up with the big spenders. Perfect example of what everyone is complaining about. (I'm not even going to address the fact that the GBU build seems to be what drove the alternator cost to zero)
    4 points
  9. 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points
    3 points
  10. Just as an aside, Bill Stong’s alternator / starter situation is pretty different. He ran a v6 minivan engine in a mid engine MR2. I would be very surprised if MR2 parts would work on that application. That’s why there has always been the “things to make it work” part of the swap paperwork, which could certainly include throttle cables, coolant hoses, etc. Starter & alternator would fall into that category, where, presumably the $$$ would go toward the (now $2500) swap price cap. (With my swap we used the starter / alternator that were bolted to the new engine when we pulled it from the yard. When we bought the engine, all those parts came along with it, and that price is what is recorded in the swap paperwork.) It is an entirely different situation when you have a stock engine and are permitted (without points or any kind of restriction) to drop $$$ on a generic application motor sports alternator which shaves 5 lbs off the stock one that would have worked just fine.
    3 points
  11. Yes - as a matter of fact we were able to get our car into the Mall of America rotunda to display the car and promote the series in the early days along with the BIR performance driving school folks. It was awesome. I talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people that day and our car was more popular than almost any of the racing school cars because it was relatable to the general public ("hey, I used to have one of those!") We also brought the car to a couple cars and coffee events, and my teammate and I also worked a couple other local/smaller conventions in 2010/2011 Thanks for recognizing that Andrew.
    3 points
  12. I guess zero is technically a point value... even though it is right around the same wording that says there is no such thing as a free part. I know you guys and gals are all doing an amazing job. Especially when we take into consideration that these are volunteer positions. However, saying no to most of these items would have made it a shed ton easier to manage and keep up with this monster.
    3 points
  13. There has never been a charge for alternators or starters. Until someone posted it to the tech Desk. Hell, I used a non-Toyota MR2 starter and Alternator for years, even asked about it. Keeps the costs down when I can use cheap GM or Jspec ebay stuff. an alternator or starter (unless you have an automatic?) has never won or lost a race in our series. As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree . My opinion.
    3 points
  14. Okay, I'm reporting how the board voted and why. I personally never considered it such a big advantage that people would be upset by it. Please write a petition for next year. And yes, this crap all came up because of Riley.
    3 points
  15. Isn’t this how eBay gets its parts?
    3 points
  16. I thought it was @LuckyKidthat submitted 2 billion tickets, not you @Bill Strong
    3 points
  17. It would work if we all followed the guidelines.
    3 points
  18. It’s fun to talk about these parts that you *could* make in a crucible with leftover sheet metal. But nobody actually is and I think it detracts form productive conversation. I’ll eat a piece of my shorts the day someone shows up with a legit upgrade part made from melting and casting another piece of their car which couldn’t be accomplished in a different, much easier, way.
    3 points
  19. Well I just got off the phone with Siebkens. It looks like the Stop Inn Tavern is open on Friday, Sat and Sunday and no restrictions to capactiy. Who is all coming to enjoy some drinks at Siebkens with us? This is a very important part of this weekend
    3 points
  20. Anybody else getting super excited for this race? I know I am! See y'all Thursday night!
    3 points
  21. Agian, WOW ladies and gentlemen. I agree with Bill Strong. It's a hobby. Champcar is an avenue for people like myself (amature) to come get the most for your money. For under $10k for equipment and $3k per race. I can do so many laps it will make me sick (2 person team - summer- no cool shirt). Please dont take the fun out of the series. Let's it be known for the best racing series for amature endurance racing. Take the lumps given and go racing as ladies and gentlemen. Oh, I get what the forum is. Its a place for racing therapy. Let it out here so when we do go racing. All is well. Deep thoughts.
    2 points
  22. Starters and alternators that aren’t part of swap or original should be points. I have trouble understanding why it’s so hard to stick to the “there is no free part” rule it’s been there forever and keeps getting run over.
    2 points
  23. There are light weight starters. Everything should be points no matter how minimal nothing should be "Free". The rule book needs to be as many pages as necessary to properly describe a rule so it is understood with clarity.
    2 points
  24. They can be smaller, lighter, and more reliable. No need for 300 pages. It's really a simple concept - if it didn't come on the car from the factory, it's points.
    2 points
  25. "4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value." So aluminum coolant surge tanks have value but racing alternators don't? It's inconsistencies like this are frustrating. When I built my car, I went with an aluminum surge tank because the factory plastic one would not longer work due to the roll cage coming through the firewall and going to the strut towers. I picked it because it was a simple shape and simple to mount. There seems to be more of a mechanical advantage to a race alternator than an aluminum coolant surge tank. I know the BOD and the Tech people work very hard and put a lot of time into this stuff. This is only constructive criticism. Thank you for all you do and for the improved updates to the BCCR.
    2 points
  26. Paul and his Slugworks teammates were one of the early supporters of the series, regional Chumpsters I think they were called. You mention Bill Riley was on the BOD, but hey Paul is just an Instigator.
    2 points
  27. Bill, I asked a tech official about starters and alternators a couple of years ago and was told it was 10 points each. And while I have never lost a finishing position due to a starter I have had to push start our car a bazillion times which gets really tiring after a while. If these parts had been free for so long they should have been added to the FPV/free list.
    2 points
  28. See, that's what annoys the rest of us. "You" get your buddies on the inside to approve something for yourself, and keep it secret so nobody else can take advantage of it. If that's the rule, put it in the book so everyone knows about it. The tech desk (and open log books) is finally exposing these secret backroom handshake deals that have "always been there"... for those that knew about them (i.e. those that asked for them)
    2 points
  29. Bill - I appreciate the quick response. Thank you. Glad to hear this is the case. I am still left shaking my head wondering how a majority of the board voted to "free the alternators."
    2 points
  30. Friday was Dyno Day! Still needs a lot of work in the not idle or WOT range, but at least we were able to get some good baseline timing numbers and AFRs dialed in for WOT. Removed the secondary manifold runners butterflies and actuation shafts, went to a simpler intake tube (no more MAFS!), and a REAL K&N air filter (how's that for cost creep?!). Final tally was +11 hp and +4 torque. The really incredible part is torque at 2500 rpm is 144, and max at 4600 rpm is 154. Pretty damn flat! Also drives completely differently now, feels much much faster and sportier. Not sure how much the shape of the curve changed, but the car feels miles better now. I was shocked at the difference, because 11 horsepower just doesn't seem like all that much. I also welded up some control arm extensions to replace our bolt-ons thingies: And we added nostrils: And there's more money in wheels and tires in the tacoma than the tacoma is worth (we're finally going to something sticky, and the Azenis were significantly cheaper than the ventus): Still to go: new splitter, finish cleaning up wiring, tune AFR everywhere below 90 kpa and above 1500 rpm, integrate new shift light/dash, install new gauge pod and gauges, bullet-proof our battery tie down (someone else's thread scared me), put some tape over the holes in the bumper caused by our MCM encounter, install new control arms, replace one CV axle, brakes, oil change, alignment, and optimize our y-pipe. Only two weekends left before Sebring. This is gonna be close.
    2 points
  31. Thanking you for the oftentimes thankless job you guys do.
    2 points
  32. That has been changed by the board so it's valued by component. I reminded Ray and Jay of this. Tech will be interesting at RA, too bad I won't be there. That is corrected for 2021.
    2 points
  33. Bump up for a winter project Price Reduction: $3000 OBO
    2 points
  34. I wouldn't put that thing anywhere near a race car.
    2 points
  35. Yes, you have that correct, to my knowledge. This is my opinion FWIW: The disconnect is a time issue, which was compounded by the C19 thing. Because of all that, it was Late August before the BOD meeting occurred, so it was basically a week before the initial deadline of Sept 1 for the 2021 BCCR. So a compromise had to be made, and only some of the ~140 published tech desk articles were moved to the BCCR. Honestly, even with the release being pushed back 45 days, I still feel it was "rushed", and i'm sure that there are things we missed despite everyones best efforts - IE the radiator wording saying "OE" which is disputable. Almost everyone involved has full time jobs, so things happen slowly. The reviewer/approvers are based across 4 time zones even.
    2 points
  36. BTW- I put the petition through for zero point radiators. I did not put the petition to say that radiators that need points be pushed to 30. My petition was simply to get an aluminum radiator of the same size and capacity as stock for zero points to keep costs in check. How it got rewritten to what it is now and how the pointed rad went from 10 to 30 baffles me. 10 points is fine to me for an alum rad that is much larger than stock. If you need that much cooling you did other items and should pay the points. The problem I saw, and I have, is that a stock rad is mega money from Toyota and now Toyota has stopped making them. I can not get a stock radiator anymore so what do I do? A cheap ebay alum rad is my only real option. Here is what was written for my petition. Propose a solution or revised rule: * If you use an aluminum radiator as the same basic size and capacity as stock then it should be zero points. I still wonder how that went to this below. The price is really irrelevant because if it is the same size and capacity then it should work as stock, +/- enough that it does not matter. My stock rad has never overheated, even at NCM 107F July a few years ago so I know it is all good. I just can not buy a new one and my current one is 5+ years old and due to be replaced. Then the rule reads. Radiator- Any radiator, regardless of materials of construction, is permitted to 0 points permitting it is equal to or less than the cost of a stock replacement that is available Online by a nationally recognized auto parts retail chain. (i.e. - Napa, Autozone, O'riley, Advanced, etc.) Champcar reserves the right to go Online and inspect retail prices.
    2 points
  37. You should show up to RA in a Dr Frankenstein costume. We can rename the Tech Desk Bill strong's monster. Seriously though. Many of us thought the tech desk would help resolve issues instead of creating new ones. No one blames you for them.
    2 points
  38. So it’s in the 2nd rule book as points?
    2 points
  39. All these free parts are making my off season shopping list longer and longer. If I ever want to get out of the middle of the pack I'll be spending thousands on a 300 point car and still be at 300 points. Then a few thousand more to get to 500 points. If we wreck, I can't afford to build another car.
    2 points
  40. You did great work with the tech desk. Tech / management created the monster by saying “yes” so many times.
    2 points
  41. We stuck a chiminea in the trailer for this weekend. That's about as good as Floridians can do. EDIT: does anybody know where we can buy firewood in Wisconsin? Here in Florida we buy it at the grocery store.
    2 points
  42. I voted for alternators to be 5 points, I was not in the majority. I don't know how tech desk points became free. They were points in February then switched to free in September. I also have a problem with it and don't understand how this did not go through. I sent a letter to TAC, tech and the BOD about some of these issues. The Tech Desk was suppose to be somewhere that Tech could look at interpretations during the year. They should be able to reference back decisions that were made. This is why we also have the knowledge base. I do not know how something can be points then free in the same year. As a BOD we felt that we could put everything on the FPV instead of looking at the 2x rules. Dealer pricers were being considered instead of national retailers per the BCCR. This is at least what I was told. I don't have a first hand experience. There were multiple 2x petitions and what we should do with it. We went to the TAC and asked for their opinion on the 2x rule and how we should value it on the FPV list. We provided them with what we were thinking and they came back with some ideas and we approved items based on our discussions. Honestly I cannot keep up with the tech desk since I have a full time job. TAC helps out with some of those items and things get brought to the attention of TAC if Tech needs help.
    2 points
  43. This is all I can find for my very niche car (which I might actually finish building this year): These are the only options I have found ranging from not available to $1030 and not available. Looks like C&R for me! In all honesty I feel like it would be good to just make the rule as follows: <=$300 radiator - 0 points >$300 radiator - 30 points ...or just go back to the old rule
    2 points
  44. Don't get your hopes up! Active aero was not approved by the BOD. We found this as a rabbit hole we did not want to go down. I caught it on Friday and emailed the team and it should not be in there. Not sure how it ended up in the BCCR. Other items if you want to discuss I am open via email, PM, or text messaging (currently no phone so it'll be a couple of days). There are some emails I need to get to that I received over the weekend, but I am getting my information as requested. I am happy to tell you which ways I voted for this year in the petition process. Also I thought somewhere in the BCCR it mentioned stock and OE were meant to be the same as this was brought up in the 2020 petition process. Also it is my understanding that anything that was voted on by the BOD that was in the Tech Desk Knowledge Base is now either in the BCCR or not allowed. For example we decided that IRS would be by component on the Fixed Points List versus having it as a flat point charge. Under the rule 4.4.4 any rulings made by tech are official until voted on by the BOD. That includes Tech Desk items since that is how we should be understanding the interpretations.
    2 points
  45. Commenting on the radiator wording issue. I'm taking it as a success that this is the biggest issue we have found so far. I believe the appropriate wording for 4.3.2 would be "Radiator greater than 1x cost: 30 pts", and my suggestion would be for you to interpret it that way if you are shopping for radiators, as that is what I understood the intent to be based on direction from the BOD. If you choose to interpret it as the dealership OE part's cost, I doubt you will find success with that argument. Now, outside of the tech writer, this is what I have always understood when dealing with parts: OE = Original Equipment (IE, the part is actually stamped BMW or FORD or whatever) and would be what you get from the parts counter at the dealership OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer = The company which produced the OE part. Bosch, Nissens, Denso, Timken, etc are examples of OEM. An OE part was made by an OEM. So, in terms of champcar, how I would love to write the wording (petition for next year anyone?) OEE Part = OE equivalent part = A part, made by any manufacturer, that meets the specifications of the originally installed part when the vehicle left the factory. So, for example, for a 02 focus OE part is FORD brand YS4Z-8005-AA (which is discontinued and NLA from what I can see) The OEM part is likely this Denso radiator (although it could have been Modine). The OEE part would be this, carquest brand radiator, or a similar radiator by any manufacturer (not denso or modine) made to the same specifications and designed to fit an 02 focus
    2 points
  46. You would be best served to submit a tech desk ticket (or tickets) and get an official answer.
    1 point
  47. No performance advantage and very hard if not impossible to know if it's stock or not.
    1 point
  48. I think no wings & splitters is more Chumpy
    1 point
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