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  1. 14 pounds is more than just a little bit of a weight savings. Free weight is what you are able to remove from the car & chassis you shouldn't be able to buy a light weight part without being charged points
    10 points
  2. We are a team with 2 new builds and an existing build for 2021. We love Champcar for the great racing and tracks. That being said I am somewhat irked about how many free points are being handed out each year. I don’t want to have to go buy a new radiator, new alternator, new willwood big brake kits, etc. if these are free in terms of points, the best/fastest teams will typically (not always) take advantage and use them. This means I’m forced to do it as well if I want to be competitive and isn’t that what we all want. If reliability mods become free, I’ll have to buy an oil cooler, e
    9 points
  3. It came to my attention today that the published 2021 VPI table contains red cells, but those cells have nothing to do with changes from Q4 2020 to 2021, so I made some easier to interpret versions. These are unofficial! No Champcar BOD, Tech, or Staff have reviewed. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK No Guarantees, this is probably not completely accurate or accurately complete. Ok, with that out of the way. These are the weight changes I found: Make Model Year VPI Curb Champ Q4 2020
    8 points
  4. Starters and alternators that aren’t part of swap or original should be points. I have trouble understanding why it’s so hard to stick to the “there is no free part” rule it’s been there forever and keeps getting run over.
    8 points
  5. When using this point to talk about radiators, I wonder how many assume factory design is insufficient/unreliable vs trying it first to see what really works. Like @QuaTTro we ran the factory 15 yr old plastic/aluminum radiator 23,000 race miles on top of its 100,000+ street miles before a wall ended its cooling career, from there, a used parts store explorer plastic/aluminum rad went in, met the same fate a couple years later. Just saying.
    7 points
  6. This applies directly to the GBU corvette. Factory starters on Ford/Mopar/GM in the 60s and 70s were giant and heavy direct drive units. GM varied the design into the 90s application dependant. Then for the last few years of the legacy Small Block (Pre LS) they switched to a modern gear reduction starter. A few different companies make conversion units that put a gear reduction starter where a direct drive belongs. There's no reliability benefit, but you shave 10+ pounds off the nose, and you gain clearance for larger exhaust. It is a performance benefit,
    7 points
  7. See my response below. This is the way that I think and the way that I vote in regards to items when petitions come up. The VPI is set and the FPV is there so that teams can choose how they want to build their car. So I think everyone forgets that Tech has the ability to assign points per the BCCR. These are interpretations. As I mentioned before earlier in this thread that the Tech Desk was created so there were no more emails going through the system and there was a check and balance with TAC, BOD, and Tech being on the same page.
    7 points
  8. Thanks Jerry! The problem isn't alternator per se. Its because a team basically asked for something for free and it was just handed to them. Why do we need to write a petition for something that wasn't petitioned to go into the rules? Why c ant we just follow the bccr? I didn't think rules could be made up (unless safety) without a petition.
    7 points
  9. I wish I would have known what a shitstorm alternators and starters would be, sorry guys. So I've been educated on an advantage of a lightweight alternator is. Anyone got those same concerns about starters? I mean, they start the car. That's it. And they carry weight. We can make a 300 page rulebook if we want to carry this to the nth degree. BTW I have been in on those conversations about these items bearing points. There was no backdoor deal with the Board, that i can assure you. in fact we have a NOT unanimous vote on the IRS and the majority on the Board thought those i
    6 points
  10. It is a very small advantage. It isn’t the magnitude of the advantage that upsets people. The ChampCar rulebook has always stated (with documented exceptions), and the precedent all along has been: is it stock? Y —-> no points N —-> points It’s an extremely simple line in the sand and “it isn’t a big advantage” is a really stupid reason to cross that line.
    6 points
  11. Ummm.... why would somebody change it then? An obvious non stock alternator is not hard to tech. If it looks stock or stockish, fine. If it looks like a racing style alternator, points. This wasn't an issue until Riley showed up with one. Why make a new ruling because 1 team asked for it?
    6 points
  12. All this would be soooo much easier if we would just make it simple: OEM replacement - FREE OES replacement - FREE Aftermarket replacement that matches OEM / OES - FREE Aftermarket (not matching OE in form/fit/function) or Performance part replacement - POINTS Items that have little relative speed advantage - 5 pts ea. (radiator / alternator / coolers / accusump) Items that have more of a speed advantage 10 pts ea. (brakes / shocks / springs / FLARES) Fight over the relative point value, but stop giving more stuff away!!! How on earth a "budget
    6 points
  13. Thank you!!! I don’t know how/why “IRS swap” was added in the first place but appreciate you guys correcting it. There was no need to add this in when a value already existed in the form of “add up the non-OE parts that go into it”.
    5 points
  14. The E30 rejected its donor heart. The E30 will be given some immunosuppressants and we will try again.
    5 points
  15. It looks like GBU started the Road America races with 5 penalty laps after a re-tech on Friday. They must have added ~30 points of parts since the Sunday Indy race, because we were told in no uncertain terms that the car was legal and accurately valued there.
    5 points
  16. haha I always assume I have brakes. Maybe I need to revisit my assumptions.
    5 points
  17. You could run no starter for free. Bump starts would be a pain but that would be the lightest and freeest performance gain.
    5 points
  18. They can be smaller, lighter, and more reliable. No need for 300 pages. It's really a simple concept - if it didn't come on the car from the factory, it's points.
    5 points
  19. Bill, I asked a tech official about starters and alternators a couple of years ago and was told it was 10 points each. And while I have never lost a finishing position due to a starter I have had to push start our car a bazillion times which gets really tiring after a while. If these parts had been free for so long they should have been added to the FPV/free list.
    5 points
  20. See, that's what annoys the rest of us. "You" get your buddies on the inside to approve something for yourself, and keep it secret so nobody else can take advantage of it. If that's the rule, put it in the book so everyone knows about it. The tech desk (and open log books) is finally exposing these secret backroom handshake deals that have "always been there"... for those that knew about them (i.e. those that asked for them)
    5 points
  21. Friday was Dyno Day! Still needs a lot of work in the not idle or WOT range, but at least we were able to get some good baseline timing numbers and AFRs dialed in for WOT. Removed the secondary manifold runners butterflies and actuation shafts, went to a simpler intake tube (no more MAFS!), and a REAL K&N air filter (how's that for cost creep?!). Final tally was +11 hp and +4 torque. The really incredible part is torque at 2500 rpm is 144, and max at 4600 rpm is 154. Pretty damn flat! Also drives completely differently now, feels much much faster and sportier.
    5 points
  22. In B4 the gaslighting: ”alternators have been free for years!” ”tons of teams use these alternators, you just haven’t seen them or haven’t asked if they are free” ”you should have asked, you can’t just assume that a non-OE part adds points (pay no attention to that rule behind the curtain that says there is no such thing as a free part)”
    5 points
  23. Jer this is totally incorrect statement in both cases, the mini race alternator can be seen from 100 ft and it is a change to performance. Spins easily and less weight and under driven pulley. Anything that changes any level of performance should be points.
    5 points
  24. Ah, therein lies the difference of opinion. You don't have to spend a mint to go race. However, If you want to be competitive, it is very hard to do so without spending at least as much as your fellow competitors. The trick is finding a race series where the spending amount fits in your comfort level and abilities. Want to be cheap? Watch TV, post on internet forums, race video games, volunteer to help out etc. Have more to spend? I think Formula 1 is the upper tier of the spending bracket. Champcar is somewhere between those two li
    4 points
  25. In my experience, boxing in the rad is way more important than which rad you run. i went back to stock to make room for a header in points and there was virtually no difference in running temps.
    4 points
  26. I've spent a non-trivial amount of my career as a tire engineer for one of the major manufacturers - the Tire Rack guys know their stuff, but I have actual data (unfortunately that can't be shared). A tire on wider rim widths will be more crisp in terms of steering precision when compared to a narrower wheel. And the treadwear difference is not huge, but is measureable.
    4 points
  27. You might get 3X the life as when the pads get low they wear exponentially faster. I went Wilwood for long term pad cost and having the same front and rear calipers I can use my half used fronts in the rear until I can use them all up. The cost benefit only takes about a year to save enough to basically get the calipers for free.
    4 points
  28. Agian, WOW ladies and gentlemen. I agree with Bill Strong. It's a hobby. Champcar is an avenue for people like myself (amature) to come get the most for your money. For under $10k for equipment and $3k per race. I can do so many laps it will make me sick (2 person team - summer- no cool shirt). Please dont take the fun out of the series. Let's it be known for the best racing series for amature endurance racing. Take the lumps given and go racing as ladies and gentlemen. Oh, I get what the forum is. Its a place for racing therapy. Let it out here so when we do go racing. All is we
    4 points
  29. A stock small block chevy starter is 21.7 pounds this mini starter is 7.25 pounds. Pretty cheap way to save 14.45 pounds. A starter that's not OE should be points.
    4 points
  30. There are light weight starters. Everything should be points no matter how minimal nothing should be "Free". The rule book needs to be as many pages as necessary to properly describe a rule so it is understood with clarity.
    4 points
  31. I have some fun stuff laying around too
    4 points
  32. Yes - as a matter of fact we were able to get our car into the Mall of America rotunda to display the car and promote the series in the early days along with the BIR performance driving school folks. It was awesome. I talked to hundreds, if not thousands of people that day and our car was more popular than almost any of the racing school cars because it was relatable to the general public ("hey, I used to have one of those!") We also brought the car to a couple cars and coffee events, and my teammate and I also worked a couple other local/smaller conventions in 2010/2011 Thanks for re
    4 points
  33. I guess zero is technically a point value... even though it is right around the same wording that says there is no such thing as a free part. I know you guys and gals are all doing an amazing job. Especially when we take into consideration that these are volunteer positions. However, saying no to most of these items would have made it a shed ton easier to manage and keep up with this monster.
    4 points
  34. There has never been a charge for alternators or starters. Until someone posted it to the tech Desk. Hell, I used a non-Toyota MR2 starter and Alternator for years, even asked about it. Keeps the costs down when I can use cheap GM or Jspec ebay stuff. an alternator or starter (unless you have an automatic?) has never won or lost a race in our series. As some in our company are saying quietly, some of you are taking the fun out of this hobby. All this just to win a bit of metal and no money. I agree . My opinion.
    4 points
  35. OK, I'll just come right out and say it - that was really dumb. You had this mostly unassuming thing sitting out there at 5 points that a team with 5 points to spare could look at and say "should I go with that fancy alternator or should I make myself some dive planes [or other helpful item that can be made with ~5 points of material]? Hmmm, decisions decisions..." Now everybody has to go out and buy a stupid expensive fancy alternator to keep up with the big spenders. Perfect example of what everyone is complaining about. (I'm not even going to address the
    4 points
  36. Well I just got off the phone with Siebkens. It looks like the Stop Inn Tavern is open on Friday, Sat and Sunday and no restrictions to capactiy. Who is all coming to enjoy some drinks at Siebkens with us? This is a very important part of this weekend
    4 points
  37. That’s rather optimistic! I think high 2:48 may be possible... the CRX ran 2:47.1 and has better braking and handling (no doubt due to the aero). Can’t wait to get the BMW out to Road America in April.
    3 points
  38. The Premium Dudes BMW is having some difficulties and is sitting on jack stands in my garage. Fortunately our teammate @red0 has another car and thrashed to get it race ready on 4 days notice. We are piloting that one this weekend. Test day went well, racing tomorrow!
    3 points
  39. I had two kids go through the transition from karting to racecars both before they were old enough to drive on the street. I told them to just ignore it. While braking, clutch in, downshift, clutch out SLOWLY, drive on. They did just fine. They eventually learned how to heel toe and even double clutch, but I also know that when it all gets busy, or if they find the pedals aren't to their liking, they skip it. I've seen lots of in car videos of drivers who don't bother.
    3 points
  40. The board meeting went like this: Non Adjustable = 0 points Single Adjustable = 10 points Double = 25 points I even reached out to verify this and was told that was correct. The new rules do not read that way. I sent an email out to clarify this today. I guess none of this matters when we swap our single adjustable coilovers for some billies on the front anyways but i figured id try and see what was up with it.
    3 points
  41. I use a stock rad and it's fine. I'm not changing my alternator to save a couple of pounds. Wilwood brakes were always available, that hasn't changed. if your car is stopping fine now and you can get through a race, then you are set, just like always. You don't have to spend a mint to compete.
    3 points
  42. Paul and his Slugworks teammates were one of the early supporters of the series, regional Chumpsters I think they were called. You mention Bill Riley was on the BOD, but hey Paul is just an Instigator.
    3 points
  43. Thanking you for the oftentimes thankless job you guys do.
    3 points
  44. Okay, I'm reporting how the board voted and why. I personally never considered it such a big advantage that people would be upset by it. Please write a petition for next year. And yes, this crap all came up because of Riley.
    3 points
  45. Isn’t this how eBay gets its parts?
    3 points
  46. You did great work with the tech desk. Tech / management created the monster by saying “yes” so many times.
    3 points
  47. I thought it was @LuckyKidthat submitted 2 billion tickets, not you @Bill Strong
    3 points
  48. It would work if we all followed the guidelines.
    3 points
  49. It’s fun to talk about these parts that you *could* make in a crucible with leftover sheet metal. But nobody actually is and I think it detracts form productive conversation. I’ll eat a piece of my shorts the day someone shows up with a legit upgrade part made from melting and casting another piece of their car which couldn’t be accomplished in a different, much easier, way.
    3 points
  50. Anybody else getting super excited for this race? I know I am! See y'all Thursday night!
    3 points
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