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Road America - T5 Incident


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We had an incident in T5 at Road America late during the race on Saturday.  I wanted to post up the video and share with the ChumpCar community to see what their thoughts are.

 

Thanks,

 

Tyler

 

 


 

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n397uP2S9x4

Edited by Crank Yankers Racing
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I'll offer my opinion on this, after talking to the driver for CYR and getting the full story on what happened.


 


The CYR car had been having some braking issues all day, so brakes were working sub-par but to that point hadn't presented any pressing safety issue. The driver in the other black E30 took the inside (dive-bomb) line into turn 5, but instead of doing it normally where you hold the inside line through the turn and give the passed driver the outside line, he dove to the outside of the braking zone, very close to the front of the CYR E30, who tried to move to the outside but had insufficient room to the right without going off the racing surface.


 


Due to the poor brakes in the CYR car, having nowhere to go, and in an effort to keep off his bumper the CYR driver braked very hard, which caused lockup. You can see what happens from there on out, contact to the rear bumper and spinning out of control into the wall.


 


No black flags were thrown, and the car who caused the incident went on to podium.


 


In my opinion that driver should have been called in. That is a very dangerous move. If you think you can outbrake someone, what do you expect will happen if you move into a line directly ahead of them and then proceed to outbrake them?


 


Nothing your driver could do Tyler, really sorry to see all your hard work on that car over the winter get trashed.


 


This is why I'm nervous about running chumpcar in my new car (which i've already spent countless hours on). I'd like to keep it in one piece for a while, so I will be considering a non-contact series.


Edited by SlugWorks Paul
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Overtaking driver passed close and hit the binders hard, not a good pass.


 


 



This is why I'm nervous about running chumpcar in my new car (which i've already spent countless hours on). I'd like to keep it in one piece for a while, so I will be considering a non-contact series.


Not picking on you in particular , no contact, HPDE, W2W or all alone it doesn't matter, anyone bringing a car onto a race course should be mentally/financially prepared for a total loss at any given moment... If it hasn't happened yet it will at some point in the future


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The driver in the other black E30 took the inside (dive-bomb) line into turn 5, but instead of doing it normally where you hold the inside line through the turn and give the passed driver the outside line, he dove to the outside of the braking zone, very close to the front of the CYR E30, who was already on the far right edge of the track, and immediately braked, hard.

 

No black flags were thrown, and the car who caused the incident went on to podium.

 

In my opinion that driver should have been called in. That is a very dangerous move. If you think you can outbrake someone, what do you expect will happen if you move into a line directly ahead of them and then proceed to outbrake them?

 

Essentially the same conclusion I came to, with the one exception.  I don't think it was a dive bomb since the other car was clearly seen and allowed passing room long before the brake zone.  Other than that I think you're spot on.  Other driver should not have moved back over to the preferred line in a brake zone.  I don't fault the CYR driver at all.

Edited by Bremsen
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Not picking on you in particular , no contact, HPDE, W2W or all alone it doesn't matter, anyone bringing a car onto a race course should be mentally/financially prepared for a total loss at any given moment... If it hasn't happened yet it will at some point in the future

 

That goes without saying, I am fully aware and prepared.

 

However, is there any reason that it isnt' prudent of me to want to race in a series that strictly punishes contact, rather than allowing it, at times, to run rampant?

 

This is a calculated risk that I will reduce to the best of my abililty. Will it keep me from racing W2W? nope.

 

I understand what you are saying though, and it is good advice.

Edited by SlugWorks Paul
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I posted on Facebook as well, I see it as more of the other driver being a bit unaware and forgetting the track continues to bend left in the brake zone. To me it looked like 99 went for the pass, stayed straight which pinched off Tyler's driver.

Only way to know for sure is in car from 99. A straight steering wheel is as criminating as turning right in this instance.

Now, there was something Tyler's driver could have done to prevent contact. Knowing brakes are not 100% and seeing 99 come up for the pass, lifting and getting on the brakes earlier would have likely allowed 99 to go flying by, screw up turn entry due to his excess speed, skate wide onto the rumbles allowing CYR to re-pass going up the hill.

Sometimes race craft is about knowing when to go slow.

Edited by NigelStu
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 I don't see this as any fault of the passing car, he was clear of Crank Yankers. That is a classic pass at that corner that occurs many times a lap, let alone a race.  Looks like some classic e30 rear hard braking "dancing" that caught the driver unaware/over corrected. I wonder if the ABS is disconnected?  Looks like the passing car is 6 to 10 feet in front of the CYR car when he loses it. 


 


Sorry to see the accident, they always suck no matter who is/isn't at fault.


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I guess maybe it is a little grey, I suppose if the passing car saw that CYR had acknowledged the pass, maybe he thought it safe to move into the CYR line.


 


That is what I sometimes do, given sufficient room before the actual turn. If we're basically side by side, or if he is still very close behind me, i dont move to the outside until turn exit because I dont' want to run someone off in the turn.


 


In the case of T5 you definitely don't want to go off, even to avoid someone. Going way too fast, that would be a suicide move.


Edited by SlugWorks Paul
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Having raced that corner, I agree with some of the above that the pass was typical and it does appear that the other car is 4-5ft passed the front bumper by the 3 mark.  Not being in the car and not having a good view of the E30's tail lights, I could not exactly tell when that driver began to brake, but it appears to be after the CYR driver has already locked his brakes up.  Also, watching the rear view the miata(Black Pearl Racing??) is not terribly far behind, if they had footage it would be even better to clarify how the pass happened and when the lock up occurred.  Crappy situation and not surprised it happened late, sorry to see your car damaged.

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Other driver should not have moved back over to the preferred line in a brake zone

 

I would disagree with this, from watching the video it looks pretty clear the other driver was actually never off the "preferred line". Doesn't look like he veered track right, but rather was carried there as a result of braking in a straight line from track left, which is actually the proper line into 5.

 

To me it looks like the passing car was following the standard line into turn 5- track left at the crest of the hill, braking in a straight line into the turn in point at track right. To me it looks like that caught the CYR driver off guard, and a stab too hard on the brakes sent the car around. I saw a lot of drivers out there this weekend staying track right all the way into 5, and when you do that you are actually turning slightly while braking, which is often the cause of a spin such as this. Not at all suggesting that that is what caused this incident, as its tough to see for sure. I would say if there was no contact, it was a clean pass.

 

I would not put blame on either driver, but just chalk it up to one of those unfortunate incidents that happens when you go racing.

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The miata team has video and said they will post it as soon as they can get to it.


 


Sucks to see the car damaged.


 


FYI, talking to the driver can often be more misleading than helpful.  Red mist, what we perceive vs. reality, embarrassment, indignation, anger all shape a story different than it really happened.  Not saying CYR driver is in this category, it's just what I've seen over the years.


Edited by Tubby
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You guys are pretty bold saying 5' gap is enough when braking from 120+! I personally like to keep the buffer a lot bigger than that.


 


Maybe i'm overly cautious, but I've had 0 contact in my 5 years of racing chumpcar, and I'm certainly not ashamed of that.


 


It is quite possible the CYR driver was distracted and didn't get on the brakes early enough, given their shitty brake situation. But if you don't dive right in front of him, this would have never been an issue and if he misjudged, no contact will result and he'll shoot off the track with nobody to blame but himself.


Edited by SlugWorks Paul
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You guys are pretty bold saying 5' gap is enough when braking from 120+! I personally like to keep the buffer a lot bigger than that.

 

Maybe i'm overly cautious, but I've had 0 contact in my 5 years of racing chumpcar, and I'm certainly not ashamed of that.

 

 

In a series with a WIDE disparity of driver experience/talent, grip, braking ability and prep I 100% agree.  As the passing driver, I personally would have left at least a full car width to the outside all the way into and through that turn.

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According to the rules the passing car is in violation of the rules because he didn't clear the car he was passing by 1 car length.

 

7.4 Driving Infraction Penalties for Endurance Races – Single infractions that occur during a one (1) hour period shall result in the following MINIMUM Pit-In / Impound penalty periods: Infraction MINIMUM Minutes of

Penalty Two Wheels Off 0.00

Four Wheels Off 0.00

Spin (On- or Off-Track) 0.00

Pit-Lane Or Paddock Infraction (safety issue) 3.00

Cutting The Course (e.g. miss a chicane) 3.00

Unsafe Or Incomplete Pass 3.00

 

7.6.2.3 It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to prepare for, plan and execute a FULL and COMPLETE safe pass. The definition of a full and complete pass is when the overtaking car has extended a lead of approximately one car length ahead of the vehicle being passed.

 

 

 

 

This rule is not enforced and as such should be removed from the rulebook or rewritten to something like "a complete pass is when you clear the front bumper" or something like that.

 

It all comes back to how subjective this is.  This is not an obvious fail but, IMO, falls into the gray area of a racing incident.  I think it was a good pass and the braking car made a driver input error especially due to the condition of the brakes.  He's not getting closer to the car in front when he loses it.  

 

In other words the passing car is not responsible for a car he just passed losing control by doing the wrong driver input.  I've passed many ChumpCars that go off the track because they get the red mist and think they can brake as late, as hard, etc and realize too late that they are now a passenger.  

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I would disagree with this, from watching the video it looks pretty clear the other driver was actually never off the "preferred line". Doesn't look like he veered track right, but rather was carried there as a result of braking in a straight line from track left, which is actually the proper line into 5.

 

To me it looks like the passing car was following the standard line into turn 5- track left at the crest of the hill, braking in a straight line into the turn in point at track right. To me it looks like that caught the CYR driver off guard, and a stab too hard on the brakes sent the car around. I saw a lot of drivers out there this weekend staying track right all the way into 5, and when you do that you are actually turning slightly while braking, which is often the cause of a spin such as this. Not at all suggesting that that is what caused this incident, as its tough to see for sure. I would say if there was no contact, it was a clean pass.

 

I would not put blame on either driver, but just chalk it up to one of those unfortunate incidents that happens when you go racing.

 

This is spot on.  I know our car had a few issues with the CYR car during the day (don't know if it's the same driver or not).   I do know that when I caught the CYR car the driver did everything they could to keep me behind him, including blocking.  I finally passed him on the outside through the Carousel, and he even drifted out to squeeze me towards the grass after I had my nose in front 1/2 way through the turn.  Can't say it was all on purpose, but if it wasn't there was some oblivious driving going on...and that fits with what this video shows IMO.  If I catch you at RA in a 110hp car, I'm faster than you and you should let me by when I'm parked on your bumper for 1/2 a lap.

Edited by iampkrfn
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It all comes back to how subjective this is. This is not an obvious fail but, IMO, falls into the gray area of a racing incident. I think it was a good pass and the braking car made a driver input error especially due to the condition of the brakes. He's not getting closer to the car in front when he loses it.

In other words the passing car is not responsible for a car he just passed losing control by doing the wrong driver input. I've passed many ChumpCars that go off the track because they get the red mist and think they can brake as late, as hard, etc and realize too late that they are now a passenger.

Oh, Tubby, I agree. I don't think (from this video) that it was an unsafe pass. I think the rule needs to be changed since it is not followed by anyone and is not enforced. Edited by enginerd
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This is spot on. I know our car had a few issues with the CYR car during the day (don't know if it's the same driver or not). I do know that when I caught the CYR car the driver did everything they could to keep me behind him, including blocking. I finally passed him on the outside through the Carousel, and he even drifted out to squeeze me towards the grass after I had my nose in front 1/2 way through the turn. Can't say it was all on purpose, but if it wasn't there was some oblivious driving going on...and that fits with what this video shows IMO. If I catch you at RA in a 110hp car, I'm faster than you and you should let me by when I'm parked on your bumper for 1/2 a lap.

What car were you driving and what time of day was it?

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I agree, that rule is not enforced at all. Non-enforced rules aren't worth having.


 


Do I think it is a good guideline? Yes I do.


 


 


It is subjective. Passing driver used bad judgement and didn't allow enough room before pulling in front of another car, racing line or no racing line. I understand that you 'have position' if you are in front of another car in a braking zone, but I don't think it should give you clearance to do anything with that position.


 


Passed driver potentially wasn't braking early enough or didn't anticipate possible scenarios with the other car. Slammed on the brakes too hard and locked them up. However, he was braking from a significantly lower speed so he probably didn't actually need to be on the brakes as early as the passing car.


 


It is grey.


Edited by SlugWorks Paul
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For what its worth, we've raced against Basil Weenies a lot and have never had any problems. They've always raced us hard but clean.  


Appears to me the 99 had made the pass and started braking hard and the rear got a little loose which in turn made the passed car brake hard and it also lost the rear and the driver was unable to get the car back under control. Seems to be an unfortunate racing incident. IMO


I keep reading that the CC staff didn't enforce the rules. Does anyone know if a corner worker called in the incident? If so what was the conversation between the corner worker and CC officials? They can only enforce what they are being told.


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The corner worker was right there. It's conceivable that he thought it was simply CYR overcooking the entry and spinning.

It would have been tough to see it as an impact. The lead car didn't move much more than it would have done normally. So I could see why they may not have called it in.

Edited by Samluke
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