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NCM & The Sinkholes


enginerd
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Thanks to the staff who ran this great event. Tech, registration, everything went smoothly and timely.

The west course was a lot of fun and challenging.

We ran fast on Friday but had a myriad of problems which kept bringing us back to the pits.

Saturday we came out strong, Larry got us into 2nd by the time changed drivers despite a quickly deteriorating transmission. We were still alternating with the top 5 when the tranny completely gave up with 2.5ish hours left. We had been using only 4th for quite a few laps at that point.

Racing was extremely clean (only one car to car incident I believe)

Looking forward to some video and the next race!

~Premium Dudes, orange e30

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Another great NCM event, thanks to Mike C and the staff, and thanks for getting car types onto race monitor (should be the standard for all CC races). The racing was clean, which isn't much of a surprise with a large amount of central teams running.

4CGM had a great couple of days. Zero errors by the drivers, pit crew, and good strategy allows us to overcome the idiotic 4 lap e36 penalty to finish P4 on Friday and turn the most laps of any car on track (tie with the Lexus) despite not being the fastest car on track.

On Saturday we finished P4 again and again turning the most laps of any car. However the overall winner was moved to EC at impound moving us up to P3.

I have to say it's frustrating turning the most laps on the weekend only to bring home a trophy only due to a rules infraction.

Overall, we had a great and fun weekend. It was nice to see and race against a lot of central region friends. NCM is a excellent track. We'll be back to NCM.

FB_IMG_1433701157231.jpg

Video to follow.

Edited by skierman64
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I fully support the bump to EC.  Either they had such a poor handle on the rules that they missed claiming the injector and thus would have a whole pile of other unclaimed stuff OR they knew what they were doing and are very likely to have a bunch of other hidden stuff.


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The Subliminal e30 (protested team) was the same speed +/- 1 second as the other fast e30s at the event. It's certainly possible that they had no power advantage from the injectors. Rules are rules though and a protest was upheld.

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Forgive my ignorance but how is a Mustang injector better than a BMW injector?

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

They have a higher potential flow rate so if they have other mods to increase airflow then injectors will increase HP. If they don't have other mods then there is no advantage (I think).

Edited by enginerd
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Forgive my ignorance but how is a Mustang injector better than a BMW injector?

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3138

They have a higher potential flow rate so if they have other mods to increase airflow then injectors will increase HP. If they don't have other mods then there is no advantage (I think).

Ah. Learn something new everyday. ...

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I was the driver racing with the Subliminal E30 for the last 1.5 hours of the race and had an awesome time. I drove the hell outta the Jetta giving it everything I had and I know he was doing the same. I have no clue what advantage mustang injectors in an E30 give you but I had a blast racing with him. Clean and strategic.

Props to our team for building and racing the best VW in chump. We always enjoy running at NCM and will be back.

55A881A8-C8D8-41A2-A8ED-C7E174D788EC_zps

Edited by montgojr
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  • Technical Advisory Committee

The Subliminal e30 (protested team) was the same speed +/- 1 second as the other fast e30s at the event. It's certainly possible that they had no power advantage from the injectors. Rules are rules though and a protest was upheld.

If they had a power advantage it was not much, the car did not have more power than other e30s.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Non-stock injectors were discussed with the team Friday after impound was over (by me), with Phil standing right there.  A set of stock injectors were offered to the team, dug out of my spares box and presented to the team.  $60 for a complete set was all I was asking to make sure the team had legal parts and everyone was on a level playing field.  


 


Rules are clear, stock parts or value.  The team was given an opportunity to install correct parts and didn't take it.  They also chose to not go back through tech and claim the parts they chose to run with on Saturday.   Hence a valid protest and an appropriate move to EC.  They pushed the limits, played the game and got caught.  


 


 


"Basically the same size"?   Ford 19lb injectors are one of the common 'upgrades' discussed inlength on the various E30 forums.  Stock is 14.5 lb/hr, Fords 19lbs are 18.25 lbs/hr (both measured at 3 bar).    Stock injectors are Bosch Design I single-pintle injectors, Ford 19lb are the Design II/III pintleless/4-hole design.  The newer design with the 4-holes does a better job of atomizing the fuel.  Performance upgrade?  You decide.


 


 


 


Lick the wounds, dig out the injectors that came with the car and send them in to any of the various reputable injector cleaning services and spend a mere $120 for a fresh set. Or find the occasional set of stock ones up on eBay for ~$120.   I'll still send that one set in the baggy for $60 shipped.  Not exactly breaking the bank.  Come back with stock injectors and the car might even run better than it was (unless there are other changes that warranted the increased flow from the injectors).


 


 


 


I don't think there is anything else to say about this topic.   If someone would like to discuss more, start a topic in the Tech section.


 


Now, back to pics/videos/recaps please.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Super short race recap from "The Team Formerly Known as Bavarian Mustache Werks"


 


Like usual, my brother and Dad joined me as the core team.  Our 4th was one of our other Spec Miata buddies.  Lots of HPDE experience, just a few SM races under his belt.   He did fine out there, learning the track and car, getting used to close wheel-to-wheel racing and picking up the pace consistently over the first 10 laps or so.  Over the next 4, car was starting to lose power, coming to a stop in turn 6 on lap 14.   Apparently "good running engine" was really "good, it can be sold as a running engine".   Might have been OK for cruising around town at 25 mph, but not so much for 4500 rpm+ for hours (er, minutes...) on end. 


 


Investigation at the track diagnosed a seized motor.  With a breaker-bar on the crank bolt, and a jack-handle on that, we could rock the car but not turn the engine at all.  Pulling valve cover off, top-end looks great with no signs of oil starvation up there.  Watching video, water temp never sky-rocketed and oil pressure dropped very quick (half a lap).  My guess at this point is that it was a combination of an old worn engine that had too large of bearing clearances combined with p.o. using way too much RTV to seal up the oil pan at some point.   I'm expecting to find some blockage to a bearing or 2 when I tear into it.


 


Much less than ideal weekend for us.  It was sort of fun to be able to just sit back and watch the racing.  Frustrating to have had such significant engine issues for 2 races in a row.   No more 'good running motors' will be purchased for this car, time to just rebuild one myself.  I should have enough parts between the 4 engines to make one good one with fresh bearings and proper clearances.


 


 


Congrats to everyone for putting on a good show.  Lot of close battles out on track was a lot of fun to watch!


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I was guest driver of Subliminal Racing, only the owner and I drove both days(talk about being exhausted at the end of each day). That was the first time in the car and on that track and it was a joy to race both. Fabulous track and car, thanks again Jim for letting me drive it. I just talked to Jim the first time the Sunday before the races and I didn't know about any of the infractions but I believe he is on the up and up about the car, we even cut a piece out of a support that the tech guys at RA approved that the officials at NCM didn't think was legal. We were faster on Saturday without it. We were the 5th fastest BMW each day, 2.5 seconds behind on Friday ant .7 on Saturday so I don't think it gave as an advantage at all. But I understand the rules are the rules..


 


The last 2 hours and 45 min. of the race it was a dog fight with the VW. One lap they would get ahead and the next we would take the lead. It was awesome great clean racing, I don't believe we once made contact. That was some of the best racing I have ever been involved with and my hat is off to you guys!!! 


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Great racing it sounds like, congrats on the podium.


 


But this is a weird comment: "allows us to overcome the idiotic 4 lap e36 penalty to finish P4 on Friday".  What do you think is a good valuation for an E36?  If you are on the podium and still manged to overcome the penalty, sounds like the valuations are working like they should no?


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Great racing it sounds like, congrats on the podium.

But this is a weird comment: "allows us to overcome the idiotic 4 lap e36 penalty to finish P4 on Friday". What do you think is a good valuation for an E36? If you are on the podium and still manged to overcome the penalty, sounds like the valuations are working like they should no?

On Sunday there were 3 e30s with faster times than our e36, and the 711 was only 0.031 slower for their FTD. If they can make it the same time on fuel as our e36 I see no reason that we should not start with the same laps. The way we managed to get on the podium was making 0 mistakes, and good pit strategy, pitting on the full course caution around 11:30ish am sat and during the lunch delivery yellows at noon. Always at the pit out station with time left on the timer and only 3 stops. On Friday we would have done the same amount of laps as the p1 car but they stopped to refill their coolsuit cooler with ice with their lead on the pack. If we run a perfect race and are putting up times slower than e30s and Miatas with 0 laps, then what do you think is an appropriate lap penalty for our car? Edited by 4CGM Chris
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You were running slower than Miatas...? Ouch... Just kidding (all in good humour I hope, I run slower than everyone!), must be a turny track, but Im sure you would demolish those Miatas at bigger tracks.  Either way, sent you a PM, happy to discuss!


 


More videos, need my fix for monday morning!


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Unfortunately our front camera stopped recording before I got in the car so I have no front video for my stint which sucks because it was one of my best yet. Great battle with the MoRon e36 and the Victorious Secret e30. I was pushing the car quite hard to stay in front of them and to try to catch the p3 miata, but would get held up a bit by traffic sometimes and we would trade positions for a bit.  Great close, clean racing.  I have rear vid but it isn't the same without the in-car.  Some exciting moments.  I will post the rear tomorrow.  It was my 3rd race weekend on the track and I think it is one of the most fun tracks I have ever driven. 

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This race I was renting from Mark Cummings in the Red A1 Pawn ZX2 Ford Escort. We managed an 8th place finish Saturday, and I'm pretty sure would have snagged a class win if there had been one, maybe two more laps in the race.


 


And I just got to throw this out there:


 


Mad props to Mark Cummings, aka  meangeneracing. Anyone who thinks they must spend $10k+ to have a competitive Chumpcar needs to take a long look at what he's got and reconsider. He is, IMHO, the original, true spirit of Chumpcar (you know, before all the jerks in BMW's started showing up, present company and myself excluded, of course). I had an awesome time, and I'll be renting from him again.


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Jim here from Subliminal Racing 711.


 


First, regardless of how things eventually turned out, getting into the car for the last 1.5 hours of Saturday and knowing that 2nd place literally pitted with us and would be right behind me led to the most exciting driving stint I've ever had.   As Mholzi said earlier, we only had two drivers, so I was on my fourth stint of the weekend, and frankly, without that motivation of chasing a top position, would have run a much more comfortable pace.  I suspect I got a 15 second or so lead out of the pits, and thirty minutes into that stint the VW was on me, so he's obviously faster, therefore I make room for him to go by.  I figure at that point he will be thirty seconds ahead by the end of the race.  But, traffic is thinner and I keep him in sight (sometimes in the distance, but still in sight).  I think it was about twenty minutes to go and I'm able to tuck up on him in certain turns.  Based on his post above, I think he appreciates the fact that I was making my presence known without doing anything rude.  With about 8 minutes to go, I was able to get inside him on turn 8 and then run side by side to the hair pin where the outside car doesn't have much chance.  Coming out of 10 ahead, I gave it everything I could to get some separation before the back straight.  I'm guessing I ran 6 or 7 1.45.x laps on Saturday, and four of them were on those last 4 laps.  For me, it felt like it mattered at that moment, and I loved the competitive pressure of trying to run at the limits without making a mistake.  Again, the best stint I've done in 7 years of Lemons/Chump racing, and thanks to the VW driver for going side by side with me without incident that late in the race.


 


To the rules stuff.  Frankly, while we have a reasonable grip, we are still learning. We've never been on the podium before (5th at Road America once but nobody really cares because they can't advance), so some things were brought to our attention this weekend.  Nigelstu did discuss the injectors with me and the tech guys and apparently 4CGM since I overhead radio talk on Saturday with two plus hours to go of their plan to protest us, and he did bring a bag of injectors to me on pit road at the end of impound on Friday, offered at $60.  I didn't have the money on me, walked down to his paddock area later with the money but didn't find him.  The reality is, putting used injectors "that came out of a running car" into a car for a 7 hour race didn't make good sense.  I'm much happier getting to run all day and getting protested than I would have been with a stuck injector that caused an engine problem. Certainly we'll have OEM or OEM equivalent injectors before the next race.


 


As to the overall weekend, on the front end of our trip, the hood of my truck blew up and bent backwards because I forgot to latch it down after hand washing my 1995 Dodge 3500, cracking the windshield and mangling the hinges and corners of the hood.  This may have been a sign since we had to come into the pits twice Friday for loose hood problems.   On the back end of the trip, our driver Mholzi ran into a deer at 80 mph on his way home.  Worse yet, he negotiated a car swap with his wife before he left for the weekend.  In between that, we got to have a great time on a great track.


 


Also, a huge thank you to poop Box Racing for being such great paddock and pit neighbors.  


 


Looking forward to the next event.


 


Jim 


711 Subliminal Racing


 


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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Jim,

I was driving with the orange e30 this weekend, and enjoyed racing you guys. You made for one heck of a great finish on Sunday. Great driving!

We also pitted next to sh*t box, and they were great. Thanks to those guys for helping us out many times during the weekend.

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3Brothers Racing and the #53 Honda Prelude had a pretty rough weekend, starting with our tow rig blowing up its transmission 2 hours into an 8 hour tow on Thursday.

We managed to procure a "back up" truck and made it to the track late Thursday night.

Had to rush to finish prepping the car for Friday's race. Despite not having the car 100% ready to go we were running ~P6 after 65 minutes and then we had two wheel studs fail. Fixing that took some time but we got back out on track (basically in dead last) just to have the master power switch get burnt up by some loosening alternator wires. Diagnosed and fixed those and ran strong the rest of Friday minus some fueling issues.

Friday evening we had time to get the car "better" prepared for the Saturday race. Put the air dam on, actually ducted the brakes, properly tied down the cool suit cooler, etc.

Started strong again on Saturday running ~ P9 after about an hour when our staring driver got sick in the car and we had to do an unplanned pit and driver change. Fueling issues continued and we could only get the car to take about a gallon a minute.

New driver got in and we fought our way back into the top twenty just for the top radiator hose to blow off and spew water all over the track. Lost 12 minutes fixing that and got back on track. Car ran strong the rest of the race but we still couldn't fill the gas tank. Pit stops were 10-12 minutes and that still wasn't enough to fill the tank. Something was preventing the tank from venting properly and needs to be fixed ASAP.

Managed to finish P13 on Saturday despite all the issues. Apparent ChumpCar noticed our fueling problems and gave us a hunsaker gift certificate, thanks for that!

Thanks to ChumpCar for putting on a great event at a great track.

Daytona and NCM basically back-to-back plus the truck trans blowing up has pretty much wiped me out for a while...not sure the next race we'll do, probably Sebring.

I have some video from late in Friday's race loading now, I'll post when YT is done with it.

Cheers,

Luke

3Brothers Racing

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