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BARBER "Why I was so upset with 1 driver of car #317"


Philippe
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I apologize for my little outburst during the rewards ceremony at Barber. I hope this video will help you to forgive me...


 


We won on Saturday, therefore we were fighting to make up a lap during the first stint on Sunday before the quiet time.


The hit, and the ensuing black flag (BTW as much as I understand the rule, there should be some leniency in a flagrant one sided hit!) really made it difficult for us. But the worst happened when all the cars were stopped on pit road.


Nobody was coming to talk to me, so I went to see the driver of the car #317. 


I tried to be as calm as possible when I asked him if he had nothing to tell me.


He asked who I was! (How many cars did he hit!?)


When I told him the car I was driving he told me:


"YOU CUT ME OFF!!!"


 


Enjoy the video! The hit happens at the end, but his driving, and the way he treats other cars are interesting too!


 


>http://youtu.be/K981KQpaf6E


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Can't really tell what happened from this video.

Didn't see anything wrong with his driving either. I thought he was driving the snot out of the car. Could definitely out brake you, and carried plenty of momentum into and thru the turns. Maybe he was just trying to squeeze his car inside of yours and you closed the door. But can't tell where his car was prior to contact. Potentially just a racing incident, but would love to see the video from there car.

Congrats on the win!

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Clearly not the Miata driver's first day at a race track. I agree with chip. Driver seemed situationally aware of other drivers and you when you'd pull alongside before he braked deeper and carried more speed in the turns. He gave you plenty of room several times.

He made confident passes when he knew he'd be sure footed enough to pull them off. That driver used every inch of the track and curbs. That's good.

Watching out your window in your rear view, you clear him at the end but he, predictably, given his driving pattern in the rest of the clip, brakes a lot deeper and is well alongside again at the time you head track left and make contact. I wouldn't say he got cut off as much as he got hit side to side when he thought he had racing room. Looks like maybe you didn't know he was back alongside. His last move to pull back alongside was an ok move but not one I think I'd try in a chump race, maybe last lap of the runoffs or something, but it was clear your car had much more overall pace over a lap with the power it has. If I were in the Miata I would have let you go unless it was for position near the end of the race. Thanks for sharing that.

Edited by bendawson3
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First, congrats on the win!


 


I tend to agree with both the above statements.  It looked like a hard fought battle by both drivers and the miata driver was really wheeling it.   I've never driven that track but from what I've seen in other videos the line you took made it look like you were leaving him the outside lane and he was better under brakes.  Based on the previous laps he probably figured you wouldn't close the door.  Your car is wide, but sometimes you have to make it wider.  I think a slight shift to the left to move in front of him leading into that brake zone would have prevented the divebomb.  That being said, I don't think it was a very smart decision on his part to attempt to make a pass into that set of corners either.


 


Hopefully both cars only had superficial damage and both drivers learned something from the incident.


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Definitely not a place designed for cars to go side by side in that corner.


 


But one of my team mates had a similar incident there - luckily just a very minor contact.  Once you got on the straight you would have left him anyway, so not sure why he pressed the issue so hard.  You say this was in the opening stint Sunday?   Pretty early in the race to be fighting for every inch.


Edited by BoiledPeanut
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Looks to me like the Miata driver figured he should be allowed to go against the chump rules and pass wherever he felt he could force his way through. Quite a few passes that didn't come close to the chump definition.


 


Just because someone's driving a momentum car doesn't mean they're entitled to bounce off cars and curbs to get around others any more than cars with power should expect slower cars to pull over on the straights.


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The lap prior he is off track and driving over the curbs and into the dirt at several corners as well as other times. The GT-30 have position into that corner by the 400 foot mark. Hit him in the brake zone and should have known better. The GT-30 would have disappeared after the pass was made. 


 


Cost both cars a black flag that could have been avoided by one of the drivers. I also believe the Miata was black flagged again in the stint.


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I don't see the Miata departing the racing surface, even two wheels completely off. I do see him not lose any control of the car when he kicks up a little dust. Most Miata racers will use every bit of curb to keep the wheel open and keep from scrubbing speed when they don't have to.

Kicking up a tiny shower of dust at track out might get you a penalty in lemons, where punishing errors is part of the competition, but I've been leading a chump race and gone 4 off and 2 off and never heard about it from officials.

All that aside, I race a Miata and would have done everything that driver did, minus the last move, not because I didn't trust myself to pull it off, but because I wouldn't trust another racer to be complicit with it, either due to aggression or not being aware. It's a race, but I wouldn't have put my car there.

I might have been more forceful keeping the camera car behind me after the couple of times it pulled alongside on a straight and didn't stick it. By the same token, the camera car could have asserted its position more effectively to close the pass, too. Neither scenario would involve blocking or forcing the other car out of the way, just a line that doesn't leave a full car width by the apex or on the outside. Defensive line= race craft.

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Looks to me like the Miata driver figured he should be allowed to go against the chump rules and pass wherever he felt he could force his way through. Quite a few passes that didn't come close to the chump definition.

 

Just because someone's driving a momentum car doesn't mean they're entitled to bounce off cars and curbs to get around others any more than cars with power should expect slower cars to pull over on the straights.

Whats wrong with using the curbs?

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Looks to me like the Miata driver figured he should be allowed to go against the chump rules and pass wherever he felt he could force his way through. Quite a few passes that didn't come close to the chump definition.

 

Just because someone's driving a momentum car doesn't mean they're entitled to bounce off cars and curbs to get around others any more than cars with power should expect slower cars to pull over on the straights.

Whats wrong with using the curbs?

 

Using the curbs is one thing, bouncing around a car (2:55) and not even having tires on the actual track surface (3:25) to force passes are another. That aggressive driving led to the hit when the Miata tried to force a pass where there wasn't room (obviously).

 

Pretty revealing that his response wasn't" Oh, sorry for the hit" but:

When I told him the car I was driving he told me:

"YOU CUT ME OFF!!!"

As in "I'm driving a Miata, you have to leave room for me to do something stupid!" :huh:

Edited by mender
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 At 2:55 the Miata outbraked the other car and used the curb, so what if it makes the car bounce up in the air. That was a good, racing pass imo (and the JI driver was aware of what was happening and gave him room to do it). At 3:25 he admittedly went into those Esses a little hot but was never out of control and used all of the concrete available (again, the JI driver saw what was happening and backed off to avoid any issues). A little aggressive perhaps but nothing egregious imo, again.


 


 Did he hit the Jacky Ickx car? Absolutely. Could he have braked earlier to avoid the contact? Absolutely. The JI car passed in a straight line and had the inside at the top of the first ess. The Miata driver is obviously competent enough to know that JI HAS to turn in to make the next corner so the contact is directly attributable to the Miata.

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Looks to me like the Miata driver figured he should be allowed to go against the chump rules and pass wherever he felt he could force his way through. Quite a few passes that didn't come close to the chump definition.

 

Just because someone's driving a momentum car doesn't mean they're entitled to bounce off cars and curbs to get around others any more than cars with power should expect slower cars to pull over on the straights.

Whats wrong with using the curbs?

 

Using the curbs is one thing, bouncing around a car (2:55) and not even having tires on the actual track surface (3:25) to force passes are another. That aggressive driving led to the hit when the Miata tried to force a pass where there wasn't room (obviously).

 

Pretty revealing that his response wasn't" Oh, sorry for the hit" but:

When I told him the car I was driving he told me:

"YOU CUT ME OFF!!!"

As in "I'm driving a Miata, you have to leave room for me to do something stupid!" :huh:

 

2:55 seemed like a pretty good line through there, I was using ALL of the curb on the left, but not usually the curb on the right.  He looked in control.  

Same with the 3:25, he left the other miata plenty of room and that whole curb is part of the racing surface IMO.  Not exactly 'chump legal passing' but by any stretch they are well within regular club racing passing rules (which frequently sees passes with 2 wheels off in the grass).  If we are going strictly by chump passing rules then I am not sure that the #66 got a full car length ahead of the miata in the corkscrew to fully 'complete the pass'...

 

I had a car make it 3 wide going into the corkscrew, so I backed out of that one pretty quick.  Going 2 wide there is pretty tricky also, though I did that with a few cars I was comfortable with, but I always gave them some room unless I was SURE they were behind me. 

Hard to tell what happened without the video from the Miata though. 

Personally if I was in the #66 i probably would have left some more room on the left in case the Miata decided to try to do something aggressive like that.  Better to be a bit cautious in the endurance race than to force the issue, you may be right, but that doesn't mean that your race may not be over.  They may have gone side by by side through the corkscrew together, but the #66 probably would have made the pass on the next straight with the extra HP. If I were the Miata I probably would have anticipated the 66 trying to go for the corner and would have backed out, and tried to get it back on the next corners that I could outbrake the 66. 

 

Avoidable contact? Probably.  The Miata may have been able to back off, and the 66 could have given room.  Want to see the video from the Miata before making any final conclusion. 

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What the Miata does when it's in front doesn't matter, what matters is that it ran into the camera car after it'd passed them. Sure, there's 'a fender inside' or whatever rule you want to live by, but ultimately if you're the car behind, you're the one with a clear view and it's your fault if there's contact. It wouldn't have hurt the Miata's day to back off about 2 seconds after being passed and follow at a distance where they're not door-to-door in every corner. Bonehead maneuver IMO


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Seems like the Miata's lap time would have been better on that lap by breathing the throttle to allow the pass and then move on.  Riding the Merry Go Round in the grass is rarely the fast line.  


 


I found this https://speedsecrets.com/endurance-racing-ebook/ to be a great read.  Short enough for my attention span and some pretty smart tips.  Maybe everyone else has read it....they don't drive like it if they have.

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I've spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a Miata and the one thing you don't ever do is slow down for another car.  Especially if that other car has power but is slower than you.  That was darned good traffic management for most of the video.


 


That being said, I probably wouldn't have been checking my mirrors on the way into that S turn if I was in the camera car.  From the Miata's standpoint that's a low percentage passing opportunity, he shouldn't have been there.  Sometimes you just have to concede that another car just out-powers you and let them go.


 


I wouldn't pass final judgement unless I saw the Miata video though.


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The miater drove fine until it took out the GT30. 

 

Why would you get black flagged for getting taken out? Was this Lemons or Chumpcar?

 

Standard policy. I got hit in the door pretty hard as the other guy came through the grass and across the curbing. I got pulled in for a black flag and I can assure you I wasn't very happy about it. Cost me half a lap for someone elses' goof.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

 

The miater drove fine until it took out the GT30. 

 

Why would you get black flagged for getting taken out? Was this Lemons or Chumpcar?

 

Standard policy. I got hit in the door pretty hard as the other guy came through the grass and across the curbing. I got pulled in for a black flag and I can assure you I wasn't very happy about it. Cost me half a lap for someone elses' goof.

 

 

Huh, I always thought it was just the offending car or if they couldn't tell who was at fault. I guess it is the same as Lemons then. 

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At Gingerman, Bill did the same.  Both cars involved came in, if it was deemed to be one sided, one team sat for the penalty and the other proceeded.  If it was dual fault, both sat.  If it was no fault, both were let go.  Bill also said he would, and I believe he did, add the lost time back for those that had to come in and were not found to be at fault that way they were not penalized for someone else's mistake.


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The miater drove fine until it took out the GT30. 

 

Why would you get black flagged for getting taken out? Was this Lemons or Chumpcar?

 

Standard policy. I got hit in the door pretty hard as the other guy came through the grass and across the curbing. I got pulled in for a black flag and I can assure you I wasn't very happy about it. Cost me half a lap for someone elses' goof.

 

 

Huh, I always thought it was just the offending car or if they couldn't tell who was at fault. I guess it is the same as Lemons then. 

 

Standard procedure, everyone involved visits the steward for a chat...

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