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BARBER "Why I was so upset with 1 driver of car #317"


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You guys are absolutely right about the appropriate response for the contact. Last time I was in the wrong like that, i hit the hong norrth supra in rear fender. I immediately apologized and offered to fix it or replace it when I got out of the car. Luckily, it was a dent on top of another dent for them and neither car spun or lost control after. Also, luckily, those fellas are super classy.

However, when you run out of talent, own it and learn from it. In my case, I thought they were leaving room for me to lap them, but by the time I realized that was their normal line, I locked them up and tapped them, i.e. ran out of talent.

I agree that some of my best times in endurance racing are the times when you're in very close quarters with similar pace. It's great if both drivers can handle it safely and consistently.

Thanks again for this conversation. Good stuff.

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JI could have left enough room for the Miata since the Miata was most likely going to try and pass under braking, or JI could have moved over once they were completely past the Miata and taken away the inside of the turn. But by staying on line (and a little wide) I can see why the Miata thought they had an opening and took the chance.

Are we watching the same video? :huh:

The previous lap JI clipped the curbing at the apex of the left hander at 2:57. If you go frame by frame you can see where the left edge of the red curbing lines up at the bottom of his windshield - just about the toggle switch. Move to 4:51 to check the approach and you'll see that the curbing is again lined up with that switch meaning that he wasn't wide but instead was taking the same line as the last lap and would have again clipped the curbing - but he got spun just before he got to the apex.

JI hit the apex for the right hander, then swept to the apex of the left hander on the proper racing line. The Miata was committed well before that point. There was no opening to take, only a hit and that's exactly what he did.

So once again, even though JI stayed on the proper racing line and drove by the rules it was somehow his fault? Sorry, I don't buy it.

Frame by frame video analysis. ... new career path?


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IMHO, there is a comment or two here that would back up my feelings I think...   you have two cars racing...     in this case...  the GT30 catches the Miata...   but they seem to race fairly close although the GT30 has more speed and once it gets by should start to move on...  So now when the GT30 finally makes a clean pass in a safe area...   the Miata tries to out brake and drive back around him in probably the worst passing zone on this track...


While it is fun to race with someone for a while...  if you are holding up a faster car, you are probably just pissing (probably not the right word, lets go with wearing their patience thin) that guy off in the long run...  come on...  you race the guy for laps and laps and he beats you finally...    let him go....  what are the outcomes a move like this could accomplish...   on one hand you have a highlight from your go pro for your pro audition tape, on the other, you spin both cars, lose seconds on track getting straighten back out then serve a penalty on pit road in a hot car...    


I mean, you should try this in a slow car...   when I finally catch someone and pass them just to have them dive bomb me in the next turn and run me off line and take it back sucks...  and it has happen to me in the same way shown here, multiple times, luckily, I plan on it coming and avoided messing up cars, because I also have to work on this thing and I'd like for my car not to look like some of the beat up pieces of crapcan some teams have...  I know the Jack teams feel the same way because they spent a lot of time preparing their cars..


I just think it was unnecessary for the miata to stick it back in there...  

Edited by Justin9
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Really interesting discussion.  Since I'm a minimally-experienced, barely-ever-finish-a-race kind of guy I'll feel free to put in my useless and stupid opinion.  


CCWS is an awesome thing, and my understanding is that it was designed to get people on the track.  It tries to lower the entry hurdles.  To that end, they try to keep the expenses and intimidation factor low and the fun and camaraderie level high.  A lot of that Miata behavior didn't really fit any of those goals too well.  I've had the same experience in CCWS, so I'll pile some of that hot shame on Miata drivers for a second...


In a dozen or so endurance races I've been involved in, we've never hit or been hit except for one nameless race where we got hit 3 times by Miatas.  The field was filled with Spec Miata guys who acted like the whole damned track was their billiard parlor.  I had a novice driver who got hit and hasn't been on track since because of it.


I also have another friend on this forum who very successfully campaigns a Miata.  They have more than their fair share of trophies, and haven't ever seen them involved in contact.  They win in the pits and with clean, consistent racing.  This is endurance racing.  I understand that this is about driving fast, and racing is fun, but fighting for tenths of a second at the price of damaging the car and spending time in the pits or off track negates a hell of a lot of those tenths saved.  I love Miatas.  Go ahead and drive the balls off of them (Like those girl-cars would have balls... B)), but just because you have a fun momentum car doesn't mean you get to run roughshod over everyone else.   


As far as the GT30 goes, I've had a lot better luck tucking in behind an obviously fast shoe, pushing them really tightly and letting them screw up driving with their mirrors.  You'll both go faster until he/she screws up and lets you zip by.  (Oh, who am I kidding, I've only had total crap luck...but I digress.)  That guy was driving 11/10ths and was going to blow it at some point.  Just happened that he blew it on your rear fender instead of in front of you where you could enjoy the show.  And even if you never passed him, one or the other teams was going to blow a minute or two later in the day in the pits or some other stupid move, which would have negated the 1.3 seconds you gained by the aggressive pass.  I think you got a little of the red mist after watching the Miata show for a few laps.


The fender pic sort of seals the deal.  It's really not cutting somebody when it's the last 18" of your rear fender...


So anyway, no need to thank me for the professional racing analysis.  I find that my driving coaching is damned-near-perfect when I'm sitting on the couch with my laptop.  You're welcome.   :rolleyes:

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Oh, the hot shame! I think a good distinction is taking shape here between assertive, fast endurance race craft and spec racer style sprint racing where you have a short time to grab what you can and tenths and feet matter the entire time.

 Yes, I agree. I too treasure the close consistent racing that results when two or more drivers find themselves running similar pace and are able to trust the other driver enough to work on the nuances. It can be especially fun when the cars have widely disparate characteristics and one has to figure out what the other driver is going to do to maximize the performance of their car while you do the same with yours.


I also agree that the video shows that very well and had the Miata backed off and not made contact, it would have been a classic momentum vs power clash and also strategy vs tactics. It illustrated the difference in driving style quite nicely with the power car setting up the pass by getting on the throttle early and the momentum car carrying speed into the corner and using traffic effectively.


Since we're now all relaxed and doing armchair analysis, here's mine!


I think it was readily apparent that both drivers progressively stepped up their game during the video. It was interesting to see both drivers change their driving during the video and adopt some of the strengths of the opposing car in order to effectively combat the position. For instance, the JI driver carried more speed into and around the corner while the Miata driver concentrated on getting onto the straight better, both to try and take away the other car's advantage. As has been said, very entertaining but for the unfortunate ending.


I wouldn't quite label it red mist by the Miata driver but more being somewhat goaded on by the success of his aggressive moves in staying with the JI car. In the lap previous to the incident and on the same corner, he was able to push hard and squeek through on the inside to regain his position and managed to make the pass stick despite the awkward track positioning that the bounce pass put him in and was able to hold off the cross-over pass that might have occurred if JI's corner speed had been a little higher. Good driving by the Miata driver.


On the next lap the Miata was once again passed by the JI car on the straight, and this time the JI car went to the inside to cover the line, just as he should have considering what happened on the last lap at that corner. Good race craft by the JI driver.


The Miata had no option on the inside so carried his momentum to the outside. Unfortunately, that put him off-line far enough that he wasn't going to make the left hander without once again bouncing over the curbing and across the track like he did the last lap but one corner sooner. The JI car also had that covered but the Miata didn't recognize that and instead of lifting, drove into the rear corner of the JI car while thinking he had been cut off.


Possibly red mist, possibly a belief that a Miata can fit in anywhere but most likely a split second hesitation in the processing software that plotted future possibilities and a predisposition to keeping the hammer down in tight situations, and the result was contact.


When the software is busy catching up to reality, usually the underlying philosophy comes through. For power cars, it's pass on the straight; for momentum cars it's toss the car in and see what comes out the other side. Less risk for the power car and as a result somewhat less demanding but sometimes we miss out on some fun. ;)


The word for today is perspicacity.


Or the B definition of prescience. :)

Edited by mender
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For me what it boils down to is how to make it around the track as fast as possible.  Each of these cars was holding the other up somewhere else, but I think it was obvious that the JI car was capable of a faster lap.  So the Miata driver was effectively slowing down his lap by trying to fit his car in the open space at that point on the track.  Therefore, it was the wrong move...Now if it was the last lap and he was battling for podium position, that's a different story. (or if this was any spec pinata race)  However, I'm sure that wasn't the case, so the move at best would have slowed both cars down and at worst would end in contact, damage, black flag, etc.  Therefore, bad decision.

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GT30 what part of the stint did the contact happen? At the start of the race I followed you for several laps before I saw you pit. Did you pit before the incident? Just trying to figure the time line as I was behind you early in the stint.


For what's its worth, I battled with the #317 a lot in that stint and although it was fierce we both gave each other room during the several exchanges in position. Also want to say I had a great time racing with the #201 Miata. He was a very good driver with great car control. 


Once GT30 pitted I believe I inherited the lead with 3 hungry Miata drivers behind me. One which twice passed me only to give the position back by over driving the car and spinning. I keep the lead for most of the first hour until it became obvious that I was running the car to hard I wasn't going to make it to the "free" pit stop at the red flag and I let the 3 Miatas by me. It really cost us later in the stint when I had to run at about 80% to make it to the red flag. I was having such a great time switching positions with the Miatas I failed to keep an eye on the big picture.


I thought Barber was a great track because it really leveled the playing field between the higher HP cars with the momentum cars which lead to some awesome side by side racing. I can't tell you how many times I would get a pretty good lead on a Miata just to see it go away in the last few turns before the front straight. You really had no time to relax.


Can't wait to go back.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Gotta watch those redline downshifts, they're worse than redline upshifts. :o

yes I have watched a lot of those redline + down shifts in many videos ,never in person though as I use the brakes for slowin down and mach the shifts accordingly.. But that's just my style you guys keep on testing your wrist pin strength OK.... Edited by okkustom
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