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chisek

Updated MPV

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2 minutes ago, jip1080 said:

 

Set the minimum weight for the specific car in their log book at the time of the penalty.  If buying a couple sets of scales at ~$700/set is off the table, then that's the end of it I guess.  With scales it wouldn't be impossible to enforce, without scales it's definitely impossible to enforce.

Fck that. This series was started under the premise of making a fast race car without breaking the bank (and Mike is trying to bring it back in that direction). There is no cheaper, more efficient way of  making a car faster and racier than reducing weight. Making a "weight minimum" is quite possibly the most un-chumpy thing you could possibly do.

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2 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

They took lots of input on specific models to reduce a bunch of values, but did not do it in any sort of holistic way to balance the field any better.

 

Bold statement.  Any data to back that statement up?

 

We could have taken the whole table and dropped all cars by 30 points.  That would have been ineffective at balancing the field.  Instead we studied the cars that are entered, how they run and how they finish.  Based on our research, these are the changes we came up with.  I'm ok with someone saying they don't agree with our findings because we'll see how it all shakes out on the race track, but to say we didn't do this in a "holistic way" is quite a statement.

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Fck that. This series was started under the premise of making a fast race car without breaking the bank (and Mike is trying to bring it back in that direction). There is no cheaper, more efficient way of  making a car faster and racier than reducing weight. Making a "weight minimum" is quite possibly the most un-chumpy thing you could possibly do.

 

A rule like that also requires a team to buy a set of scales before they start removing extraneous parts from the car.  Or they can just guess... I have no interest in putting teams in a position where they don't know their values or penalties until they show up at the track.

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5 minutes ago, SiberianDVM said:

Still no help for the MkIII Supra, yet the MkIV with 25 more HP goes down 300 points? 

 

We didn't get to every car, but we still can.  Send us some data and we will look at it.

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Fck that. This series was started under the premise of making a fast race car without breaking the bank (and Mike is trying to bring it back in that direction). There is no cheaper, more efficient way of  making a car faster and racier than reducing weight. Making a "weight minimum" is quite possibly the most un-chumpy thing you could possibly do.

I'm not talking about the teams buying scales, I'm talking about the series buying the scales for inspection at the track (tech, post-race impound).  You can weigh out 50lbs at home right?  Then you can probably figure out how to add a few pounds to your car before a race if needed for a BoP penalty.  And I'm not talking about a series-wide minimum weight.

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Just now, chisek said:

 

Bold statement.  Any data to back that statement up?

 

We could have taken the whole table and dropped all cars by 30 points.  That would have been ineffective at balancing the field.  Instead we studied the cars that are entered, how they run and how they finish.  Based on our research, these are the changes we came up with.  I'm ok with someone saying they don't agree with our findings because we'll see how it all shakes out on the race track, but to say we didn't do this in a "holistic way" is quite a statement.

I'd like to say as someone who is new to this but has similar experiences it's nice to see regardless of if you agree or not at least you're willing to stand next to your decision's and take a few pointed question's on the chin so to speak. 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

Oh, by the way the weak fragile little 1.6 Miata could use a little help. :)

 

 

 

They could start by keeping you out of the car!

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21 minutes ago, chisek said:

 

This I agree with.  Perhaps trying to be too detailed doesn't work.

 

So fuel matters and values are different or it's not important and all of a generation is valued the same regardless of the changes in tank size from year to year.

I will throw in a data point just for reference. It is generally accepted that the 3rd gen Firebird and Camaro came with 15.5 gallon fuel tanks. In search of an edge.. I got my hands on a GM document showing tank configurations and there was a configuration that was 16.4 gallons (shaky argument on validity though). If it were open, I could claim there was a bigger version, and get myself and extra gallon to make 2 hours when utilizing the +2 rule.

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6 minutes ago, Mikiel said:

 

A rule like that also requires a team to buy a set of scales before they start removing extraneous parts from the car.  Or they can just guess... I have no interest in putting teams in a position where they don't know their values or penalties until they show up at the track.

 

How so?  If a team has just won a race they probably already have all the extraneous parts already removed.  There wouldn't be any sort of weight minimum until then (as was previously stated).  There are a lot of very competent folks in ChumpCar, and I've got confidence in the teams that have won races that they can figure out how to add ~50lb (or whatever the penalty would be) to their car with a bathroom scale and get very close.

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1 minute ago, jip1080 said:

 

How so?  If a team has just won a race they probably already have all the extraneous parts already removed.  There wouldn't be any sort of weight minimum until then (as was previously stated).  There are a lot of very competent folks in ChumpCar, and I've got confidence in the teams that have won races that they can figure out how to add ~50lb (or whatever the penalty would be) to their car with a bathroom scale and get very close.

 

To clarify something for you; I think people are thrown off by the "Minimum" weight. Just scratch that term all together.

 

What you are saying is if a team continues to have sustained success just asking them to add a determined weight; 50, 100, 150lbs. Then they would be weighed at the race by ChumpCar and Chumpcar could say "you won all those races at 2000lb and we told you to add 100lb, why don't you weigh 2100lb now?".

 

 

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1 minute ago, shutupracing said:

 

To clarify something for you; I think people are thrown off by the "Minimum" weight. Just scratch that term all together.

 

What you are saying is if a team continues to have sustained success just asking them to add a determined weight; 50, 100, 150lbs. Then they would be weighed at the race by ChumpCar and Chumpcar could say "you won all those races at 2000lb and we told you to add 100lb, why don't you weigh 2100lb now?".

 

 

Yes, that.  I apologize for not being clearer before.

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52 minutes ago, chip said:

Do all e36 years have the same tank capacity?  Are there any other manufacturers that have different tank capacity from year to year?

Depends who you ask and where you look. In some places it lists the later M52 as having a 62litre tank and earlier models having 65. They are all right around 17 gallons though.

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3 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

 

To clarify something for you; I think people are thrown off by the "Minimum" weight. Just scratch that term all together.

 

What you are saying is if a team continues to have sustained success just asking them to add a determined weight; 50, 100, 150lbs. Then they would be weighed at the race by ChumpCar and Chumpcar could say "you won all those races at 2000lb and we told you to add 100lb, why don't you weigh 2100lb now?".

 

 

 

And the answer is because we added the mandated 100 lbs then swapped the windshield to Lexan and put in a lighter battery to get back down to the 2,000 lbs. :D

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Just now, jip1080 said:

Yes, that.  I apologize for not being clearer before.

 

I understood what you meant from the get-go. But I can see why some people read "minimum" and had a panic attack.

 

Personally, besides for the cost sustained by chumpcar to buy scales I feel this is one of the better proposed solutions to balance performance as it can be done on the individual cars causing the issues as opposed to an entire demographic.

 

You build a car and have success? Great. We aren't going to make a rule that makes your car obsolete, we are just going to add weight till your car comes back down to the performance closer to the field. You won't be ruled out from having success but it's also going to become tougher to win. But hey, that's cool, if it were easy, we wouldn't do it.

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If you want to handicap a winning team I'd suggest a time penalty (like we're doing with DOV laps) is a much better solution for a couple of reasons. The team can't in any way fiddle with a time penalty, but they can take the weights out of the car for the bulk of the race and put them back in during the final pit stop. Worse than that, removable weights could work loose, and when the car gets into an accident you'd have X pounds of steel or lead flying around inside or out of the car.

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3 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

And the answer is because we added the mandated 100 lbs then swapped the windshield to Lexan and put in a lighter battery to get back down to the 2,000 lbs. :D

The point being is that you can't be below the mandated weight. You can swap to lexan, sure, but you'll still have the put the weight back in the car. The only advantage is you have more control over placement with the weight penalty.

 

3 minutes ago, Mikiel said:

If you want to handicap a winning team I'd suggest a time penalty (like we're doing with DOV laps) is a much better solution for a couple of reasons. The team can't in any way fiddle with a time penalty, but they can take the weights out of the car for the bulk of the race and put them back in during the final pit stop. Worse than that, removable weights could work loose, and when the car gets into an accident you'd have X pounds of steel or lead flying around inside or out of the car.

Time penalty is fine, but harder to adjust to different tracks perhaps. I personally don't like the penalty laps at all because they've never been applied correctly from what I've seen.

 

I'm sorry we won by 3 laps because 2nd place who was right behind us broke with two laps left. Now we go racing the next 3 races with no shot at winning. Not really fair for anyone in that case.

 

Timing penalty is good, but should also probably only carry over one race at a time.

 

I don't consider removable weights to be much different than most safety items. It has to be secured properly. If you go around and wiggle peoples seats and see how much movement there is....that is probably just as big of concern as removable weights. But that goes unnoticed. Plenty of ways to properly secure weight. It's done in most series, so it's well document at this point.

Edited by shutupracing

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22 minutes ago, chisek said:

 

Bold statement.  Any data to back that statement up?

 

We could have taken the whole table and dropped all cars by 30 points.  That would have been ineffective at balancing the field.  Instead we studied the cars that are entered, how they run and how they finish.  Based on our research, these are the changes we came up with.  I'm ok with someone saying they don't agree with our findings because we'll see how it all shakes out on the race track, but to say we didn't do this in a "holistic way" is quite a statement.

 

Here is the data to back up my statement. Can you find any correlation? I can't!

 

 

MPVvsField.png

MPVvTop10.png

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2 minutes ago, Mikiel said:

If you want to handicap a winning team I'd suggest a time penalty (like we're doing with DOV laps) is a much better solution for a couple of reasons. The team can't in any way fiddle with a time penalty, but they can take the weights out of the car for the bulk of the race and put them back in during the final pit stop. Worse than that, removable weights could work loose, and when the car gets into an accident you'd have X pounds of steel or lead flying around inside or out of the car.

 

That's where the rules would need to be written to dictate safe placement / attachment and an attachment method which would prevent easy removal.  We've already got similar rules for the battery, which is a rather heavy hunk of weight added to the cars.  In karting we had minimum weights and minimum safe mounting requirements for when we had to add weight and it seemed to work fine (my kart had 35lbs of weights added at one point when I was doing a lot of running).  It'd be a lot easier to write rules around mounting weights than swaps.

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You'll have to explain your charts to me, but it looks like once I understand how it's displayed it will be useful.

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In both graphs, the MPV bar SHOULD follow the Standard deviations. There is no correlation.

 

In the top graph, which considers the entire field, the only MPV moves in the right direction where for Honda/Integra, VW, and a wildly disproportionate MPV change for Datsun Z which I had shown previously to have the highest trophy rate already...

 

In the bottom graph, which considers only top 10 finishers, the only MPV change in the right direction is for the Mustangs and I wasn't aware that anyone was complaining about them.

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4 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

In both graphs, the MPV bar SHOULD follow the Standard deviations. There is no correlation.

 

In the top graph, which considers the entire field, the only MPV moves in the right direction where for Honda/Integra, VW, and a wildly disproportionate MPV change for Datsun Z which I had shown previously to have the highest trophy rate already...

 

In the bottom graph, which considers only top 10 finishers, the only MPV change in the right direction is for the Mustangs and I wasn't aware that anyone was complaining about them.

 Do you have one with MPV change vs finishing position?

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1 minute ago, jip1080 said:

 

That's where the rules would need to be written to dictate safe placement / attachment and an attachment method which would prevent easy removal.  We've already got similar rules for the battery, which is a rather heavy hunk of weight added to the cars.  In karting we had minimum weights and minimum safe mounting requirements for when we had to add weight and it seemed to work fine (my kart had 35lbs of weights added at one point when I was doing a lot of running).  It'd be a lot easier to write rules around mounting weights than swaps.

 

Weights are still an extra expense, more lines in the rule book, one more thing for tech to inspect for proper installation at inspection, and one more thing to re-check during impound. A time penalty is free, is already in the rule book, and requires no pre-race/post-race checks. I'm sympathetic to the idea of giving a temporary handicap to the winner, but we're trying to make things simpler, not more complicated. If the argument against the DOV penalty is that it's implemented inconsistently, we can address that with MUCH less trouble.

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