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MR2 Biohazard

2017 Rules, what they should have been

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I can see how the cars in the series could be more even at the end of a race with this line of thinking.

 

However, I believe it would make everybody faster.  It would also cause a lot of teams to spend money that they don't want to at this time.

 

 

 

To carry the "free stuff" line of thinking to the "nth" degree, why don't we all drive tube frame cars?  They are cheaper in the long run!

 

 

P.S. What is wrong with the old way of thinking about Chump?  Why do we need to go in a new direction?

 

 

P.P.S. Troy, I have nothing against you or your car.  I like to see your car on track and think you and your team are the pointy end of Chumpcar. 

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4 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Dang bro, no need to yell.

 

My point is that it does not matter for an E36. That person is removing themselves from Chump because they have this idea that they won't be competitive or whatever without their radiator and cooler. It's just not the case.

 

Other cars it may help, probably helps a decent amount of cars. I'm going to go with the "we didnt pick your car" line. If your car oil starves on an off-ramp at 45mph. Then you probably dont want to turn it in to a race car.

Anyone who says we did not pick your car is basically saying F U to everyone. It is a bad attitude for sure.

 

If a car does oil starve at 45mph they why not say they can have an accusump. Just because you do not need one does not mean others do not. So you are saying that since you do not need one screw everyone else that does and if you do not like it go to another series.

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3 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

I must vehemently disagree with ssome of the speed creep you suggest. You say sway bars don't make a car faster, would you give them up if it was the other way around? You say oil accumulators should be free, but in the next section you allow 100 points for dry sumps.

 

Anyone who thinks Aero should be undercosted doesn't want to have cheap racing. Don't even try to say that wings are balanced by the drag. Even if you build it cheaply (with many hours of development), it becomes a requirement to stay competitive and that pushes costs up. As you go faster and faster around the corners you break more hubs again making it more costly series.

 

Now, I do agree with the table approach, and I have thought that TCVmin is a good idea. But, many of your values here aren't equitable, that would have to be resolved, but is easier to do than the current formula trials.

 

I think you have to start with a good image of the kind of cars and racing we want the series to be. I think in a field of 100 cars, 98 of them don't see it as low slung mid engined rockets with wings that corner so hard they break the wheels off. So I am happy to hear that your high $$ machine winds up at about 1000 points. If you compare it to some of the newly added 700 point options, it's still fair!

 

The rest of us would really like to compete in a field of equitable BMWs, Miatas, Mustangs, Swapped Civics, Acuras, and even diesel VWs. 

I 100% percent agree with the underlined statements.

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9 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So now my car that is a zero point car (points don't matter in this scenario anyway) that has 140 HP needs to be within 4 laps of the same car with possibly 80 more HP.  (how much HP does a V6 make?)

 

Not gonna happen. 

 

 

I think an 140hp car that is driven really well, reliable and you use good strategy for pits has a great chance to win. Now you need to figure out the driving part, I do not know your skill level so I can not say either way, have to figure out what good pit strategy is (it is not every 2 hours BTW). You have more of a chance than you know if you get it right.

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6 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I can see how the cars in the series could be more even at the end of a race with this line of thinking.

 

However, I believe it would make everybody faster.  It would also cause a lot of teams to spend money that they don't want to at this time.

 

 

 

To carry the "free stuff" line of thinking to the "nth" degree, why don't we all drive tube frame cars?  They are cheaper in the long run!

 

 

P.S. What is wrong with the old way of thinking about Chump?  Why do we need to go in a new direction?

 

 

P.P.S. Troy, I have nothing against you or your car.  I like to see your car on track and think you and your team are the pointy end of Chumpcar. 

How would it cause teams to spend money? It should not change anything for most teams, just give them all a chance to have a good result.

 

Tube frame cars, funny. Why point things that most have? Why point things that really do not make us faster. Why not keep it simple? Because we have always done it that way. Bad thinking.

 

I agree I am the pointy end of chump and hence I give myself 4-5 laps and more than almost all cars. I want to earn a win and I want to battle. I think most want that. I do think a lot of people want me gone so they think they can go for a win.

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BTW- I am going to shop now to replace yet another engine and it takes like 10 hours. So I will probably not be posting for while. Carry on though as this is entertaining to me at this point. I know I have like a 1% chance of staying in Chumpcar at this point and I feel like I still need to fight to try.

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41 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

It does have the approved list of swaps. We could also make a non approved list that would say automatic to ec if determined too much. My list was a start as I do not know all the cars out there and that was really off the top of my head of what I know personally. Tech will know the cars already. This would not be hard to implement.

 

When thinking of proposal please make sure you think of all cars and teams and if you will hurt or help chumpcar and the teams. If you want to out a team, like myself, then that is OK. I just say MAN UP and say it. Tell me to my face that you personally do want me in chumpcar and do not want to race me.

 

Troy,

 

That was a stab at the current 2017 rules, not you. I think your proposal keeps power in check.

 

We would need fill in specific engines later, rather than "neon with swap". Easy enough to do, and you did it with the toyota motors you know. For the neon it is the 95 to 02 2.4 na motors. 

 

Good luck in 2017 rules. I hope you guys get back out there, and i hope you can swap a motor with a little less power or somehow get around the value issue enough to come play. The power level the rules will allow next year will more than give us room to match your swapped power (turbo 2.4 neon anyone?) so i hope you either get under 500, or the rules get fixed to keep us all reasonable.

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19 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think an 140hp car that is driven really well, reliable and you use good strategy for pits has a great chance to win. Now you need to figure out the driving part, I do not know your skill level so I can not say either way, have to figure out what good pit strategy is (it is not every 2 hours BTW). You have more of a chance than you know if you get it right.

2 hr pit strategy is not the basis of doing well always.  I have said this for 3 years now but nobody seems to understand.

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Just now, Black Magic said:

 

Troy,

 

That was a stab at the current 2017 rules, not you. I think your proposal keeps power in check.

 

We would need fill in specific engines later, rather than "neon with swap". Easy enough to do, and you did it with the toyota motors you know. For the neon it is the 95 to 02 2.4 na motors. 

 

Good luck in 2017 rules. I hope you guys get back out there, and i hope you can swap a motor with a little less power or somehow get around the value issue enough to come play. The power level the rules will allow next year will more than give us room to match your swapped power (turbo 2.4 neon anyone?) so i hope you either get under 500, or the rules get fixed to keep us all reasonable.

Good to know.

 

I agree on the list. I think we all would need to grab a section with the cars we know and fill it in. Who knows our cars better than us.

 

I have two schedules made up now for next year. A chumpcar one and a AER/WRL one. I hope to use the chumpcar one still. I am 1094 points right now so it does not look good. I wonder how many others are going to have the AER/WRL schedule as well. With the series and options of tracks being more similar than ever, just look at RA in Feb, the choices are there.

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2 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

2 hr pit strategy is not the basis of doing well always.  I have said this for 3 years now but nobody seems to understand.

I have won about a dozen races and almost every race I have pitted different than everyone else. It is funny when I look down the pit stalls at WGI and see myself and M4L pitting and the rest is completely open. Funny how we win there a bunch and or M4L. With 5-6 min full course yellows people still think they can pit under green and do well. What a joke.

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20 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I have won about a dozen races and almost every race I have pitted different than everyone else. It is funny when I look down the pit stalls at WGI and see myself and M4L pitting and the rest is completely open. Funny how we win there a bunch and or M4L. With 5-6 min full course yellows people still think they can pit under green and do well. What a joke.

 

100% spot on. 

 

Right now my math is showing that sensitivity to adding a stop for an 8 hr race is 60 hp added potential (fuel) for a 1 sec per mintue of laptime. In real world speak, at vir full if you can go 2.2 sec a lap faster or more with 60 hp more you take the added power (which the open rules now allow). Bsfc correction for turbo power makes this closer to high 40s or 50, but still a likelyhood that you end up 3 or more secs a lap faster with that power. 

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Sorry Troy but I mostly can't agree with you on this.

 

First off, sway bars, like any other suspension component will make your car faster if chosen properly. Your average speed around a race track is not determined solely by terminal velocity, but by your speed everywhere on the track. If you can carry more speed through the corners, and gain a higher corner exit speed you carry more speed down the entire straight, but I'm sure you already know this. We have had a great deal of success decreasing our laptimes by experimenting with different sway bars. They are a performance enhancer without doubt.

 

Second, everyone here will agree that a lighter car will accelerate and brake better than a similar but heavier car. I saved almost 10 lbs hung out way in front of the front wheels by using a generic aluminum radiator. Is that not a performance enhancer? Nevermind that the car is more reliable and now has a lower chance of being sidelined due to over heating. Isn't staying on the track a performance advantage? 

 

Third, this series has ALWAYS claimed to be a budget racing series. Since there is now way to enforce budget caps for teams we have to control expenses using the idea of opportunity cost. With a limited amount of points teams have to make tough decisions, do I want those big cams or an accusump? By making more and more items "free" or virtually free, there is now less opportunity cost associated with those decisions. If we continue down that road we will end up like every other race series in the world where big money and big sponsor rule the roost.

 

I can agree that it sucks that you are placed in a position where you have to consider leaving or building a new car. That is why stability in the rules and more importantly impartial enforcement of the rules is critical. I think if you ask around most people would agree that we are in this mess mostly because the rules were rarely enforced.

 

Don't quit! Stick it with it, lets see how these changes work out. Building a new or different car isn't the end of the world especially if we can count on it not being outdated every6 months by rule changes.

 

PS- I'm building a new car this winter because, despite all of my development, I can't compete with the cheaty BMWs and swapped cars. Just a little anecdotal evidence that there is a flip side to your predicament.

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

So there is someone with an E36, which should totally and completly dominate the series going to AER and not coming back.

 

This should be a giant waiving red flag for anyone reading and wondering why people are leaving. Board, please read this and understand that people are leaving because of the rules that do not make sense.

 

Am I missing something here? The given example is posed as a big red flag mainly because he is putting extra parts on the car and getting laps that he feels shouldn't happen because to him it's needed. But yet in the system you propose the same car within this would be getting 3 laps because it's a faster car than say my little 1.6L Miata. In this scenario isn't he going to go to AER either way because no matter what he's getting three laps he wouldn't otherwise get in AER? I don't see where his issue is resolved... He's either getting laps for parts or laps for being fast. What difference does it make to him? While in turn the rest of the teams who want to reasonably compete have to scramble to add parts on to play catch up to what you essentially already have... I am one of those new teams learning the ropes and know we have a LONG way to go but as a team with a tight budget I'm not exactly sure that putting the carrot of achievement further and further out there is the best answer. As it is we're trying to prioritize what additions will go on this season that ARE needed just to make the thing run much less add things onto it to make hang on to mid-pack most races. Just my 2 cents from a noob.

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

How do you figure. Be more specific. If I add an accusump I can make is faster? So if I do not have an accusump we go slower.

Turn it around... one adds  an Accusump because they already are going faster, pulling more G's.  With a free Accusump one can spend the points on something else to make the car faster. (until the next Achilles heel is found, then we ask for something free to fix that.)  Please don't try and tell us (Or Toyota's WEC team, or Bill Strong) that reliability is not a performance advantage in an endurance race.

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54 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

How would it cause teams to spend money? It should not change anything for most teams, just give them all a chance to have a good result.

 

Tube frame cars, funny. Why point things that most have? Why point things that really do not make us faster. Why not keep it simple? Because we have always done it that way. Bad thinking.

 

I agree I am the pointy end of chump and hence I give myself 4-5 laps and more than almost all cars. I want to earn a win and I want to battle. I think most want that. I do think a lot of people want me gone so they think they can go for a win.

I assume this is in reference to my asking you directly:  What is wrong with the old way of thinking in Chump.

 

Answer that question without telling me I have a poor thought process.

 

What is wrong with the old way of bringing a 500 point / dollar car and not forcing the rules to the nth degree?  That IS the old way of thinking in Chump.

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9 hours ago, Ham Sammich said:

 

Thats every piece on every car.  Everybody has their areas.  Doesn't matter if you want to do it or not.  If it becomes more of a thing, others around you will do it anyway.  I cut a car in half to improve it's aero and fuel economy (that was free).  I didn't hang a wing on it..... it took me 6 weeks. FREE.

 

Troy don't you feel that the rules should hit the most seasoned and talented among us the hardest?  The rules should have hit the most cheaty among us the hardest and left the working man alone (so to speak).  It would be easier (on average) for the most seasoned to make massive changes than the noob.  I'm not overly excited about building another car, but it would be easier for me than some of the others.  But it doesn't seem fair to me to tax the low man on the totem pole to keep cheatyness at bay by one or two of the seasoned folk.

 

I'm not sure what "growth" means to Chumpcar.  I don't know that making it harder for the bottom 80% of the field is the right answer. i can tell you this, my opinion is we should have slowed everybody down, not made provisions for more speed.  Might be a little to late to worry about that now.  I don't feel the general consesus is that we're worried about what part to take off the car to slow it down.  I believe the consensus is that its a pile of speed creep, and likely new builds for a lot of us.  It is a speed contest, it ain't a car show. ;)

 

We should have beat down the fastest teams, not re-done things for the other 1000 teams.  I'm probably wrong.

 

 

I evidently don't know how to quote on here, but this is my response:

 

That is a pretty socialist mindset. You're saying, if you do well, if you are a veteran in the series, you should be punished. In every racing series, Rookie teams are weak. I do not want to be in a series that if I start doing well because I spend time and effort into my hobby, I am penalized.

 

Everyone is worried about swaps and performance parts. We don't have ZR1's and Viper's out here guys. We have Miata's, E30's, 90's MR2's, and 90's 240's. These are 20+ old cars. Someone smart once told me the four things to a winning car are Power, Weight, Driver, and Strategy. Being in Chump for a couple years now, I am a strong believer in Driver and Strategy being the two most paramount difference makers. Everyone talks about how fast Troy is and how unfair it is that other non-swapped car have to compete with him. No one talks about what a great driver and strategist he is. Again, it took experience to get there. Here's an example: Bill Strong hopped in an MR2 at AMP on Sunday. He had never raced the track, and never been in that car. He put up their teams fastest time of the race in one stint. Talking with the COO, direction of where the series wants to go is very important in how the rule set is developed. This is the entry to grassroots racing. Nothing against Lemons, but the gimmicks and silliness is not what I want to be apart of. I want to be encouraged to critically think, engineer, and gain experience. THAT IS WHAT WINS RACES. THAT IS WHAT KEEP PEOPLE HERE. This is a social club. It should be a family. If someone is better than you, you have competition and goals. When I started building my car, I looked at the fastest cars and wanted to come up with a combo to beat them, within the rules.

 

In my opinion, I think there is a solution for everyone, but it relates to classes. We have always been 500 points or dollars. Why stay that way? With so many different types of cars, and swaps and performance adders, why not say 1000? (I am not the most intelligent, but rather offering a perspective on a solution) Just like all series, a v6 swapped MR2 shouldn't be competing against a stock Miata (why would anyone race those things?? ;) Jk). It all relates to classes. Say 200-400 is A, 401-600 is B, 601-800 is C, and 801-1000 is D. Use Troy's thought process on base number for swaps, and keep the performance adders. The only EC cars should actually be built race cars, or newer awesome cars like the M3 at AMP. So Troy for example, would be in the D class, 800-1000 points. Probably somewhere around the 700 point mark for car and engine, then the other points from aero, added performance, and so forth. Then he would be racing the V8 240, swapped RX7's, and whatever cool crap is out there. Stock BMW's could be in B class, with maybe a swapped Miata (I don't know the performance of these, just an example). Why is there a push to try and penalize the veterans of the series? Why would veterans want to stay? This is supposed to be a family and supposed to be fun. This is my get-a-way from chores and yard work.

 

Do I hate some of you? Probably ;). But if you ever needed a tool at the race track, it's yours. We should all be able to race and have fun, but only COMPETE against equal performance cars. 

 

 

Edited by Dcwilliams00

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Isn't this proposal similar to the bonus laps for cars under 500 pts? I would be happy to NOT have to add 30-50+% more power to my car to make it closer to being competitive if I could get a few bonus laps. Maybe something like 20 pts per lap (or XX pts per lap), Edit: Both directions above and below 500, would make more sense?

 

Edited by BeastZ06

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My team is new to the series, please be gentle :-)

 

In my mind there are four types of changes we make to these cars:

 

1.  Power addition

2.  Weight reduction

3.  Improved Handling

4.  Reliability

 

While there is some inter-relationship between these, they are generally separate areas in which any candidate car will require evaluation and potentially need changes.  The stated goal is to establish a baseline performance (e.g. the BMW E36) which is assigned a value of 500 points.  A specific vehicle's Vehicle Performance Index (VPI) is then a measure of that car's performance potential against the baseline or reference car.  Note that VPI is potential because all teams are not equal in terms of mechanical ability or driving skill.

 

VPI is a combination of Power, Weight and Handling (1, 2 and 3).  Reliability should not factor into the Performance Index.

 

Long time Chumpcar participants may argue that reliability is part of performance since this is endurance racing and they will quote the adage "I didn't pick your car."  The reality is many picked the car that was on blocks in the driveway, rotting in the back yard or about to be crushed at the local scrap yard.  The reality is also that regardless of where a team found its donor car they deserve sufficient freedom within the rules to make that car capable of finishing the race.  Modifications to make a car capable of finishing a race should not add to the VPI.  The difference between the VPI and the 500 point reference car should be to increase the performance of a specific car to move it from a DFL or mid-pack car up to the pointy end of the field.  The current rules are encouraging teams to run equipment that is fast, but constantly on the edge of failure - most stock cars can't run the banks at Daytona and survive without mods to the oil pan.  When those "on the edge" cars fail on track they create a safety hazard for themselves and have a significant potential to create a hazard for others (oil, water).

 

I agree with Troy that reliability, longevity and safety items need to be promoted and zero points!  These items include accumulators, alum radiators, non-stock radiators, trans coolers and oil coolers.  I would also argue that radiator ducting and oil pan baffles should also be free.  If your car doesn't need an accumulator, aluminum radiator, etc. then you don't need to spend the $, otherwise this allows a team to make their car run the distance.

 

Realistically if the series is about low cost and safe racing, Chumpcar needs to think about limiting weight reduction or change the rules associated with safety equipment.  Currently weight reduction is nearly unlimited, there are teams with only the frame horns or unibody sticking out the rear since the trunk floor, trunk lid and other brackets and sheet metal has been removed.  Creating cars with "pointy protrusions" and not requiring anti-penetration plates on the door bars of the cage will eventually lead to a significant if not life threatening injury.  Right along with removing rear structure, teams are free to remove dramatic amounts of forward structure - this compromises crush zones in the forward section of the car - to address this without restricting weight reduction I would say that ankle protection bars should be added to the no-point cage.

 

Aerodynamic modifications are a different animal.  To run an effective aero package requires significant levels of testing.  This is an area that could eventually be a Pandora's box.  As the field becomes faster, aero becomes a bigger contributor to maximum performance and if aero is cheap or free, teams with big budgets will have effective aero and teams small budgets won't.  I feel fixed points for wings and splitters is short sighted, the series needs to control the amount of aero modification allowed by specifying surface area for wings and splitters, otherwise an industrious team is going to find the right car, fab a foam core wing the size of a caravan, put in a honkin' big turbo and destroy everyone at the faster tracks - think prototype vs GT car.

 

VR,

 

Ryan

Edited by reidry
typos, what else?
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4 minutes ago, BeastZ06 said:

Isn't this proposal similar to the negative laps for cars under 500 pts? I would be happy to NOT have to add 30-50+% more power to my car to make it closer to being competitive if I could get a few negative laps. Maybe something like 20 pts per lap (or XX pts per lap), Edit: Both directions above and below 500, would make more sense?

 

 

The problem with laps, positive or negative, is that the points do no scale well. 100 points for a turbo does not equal 10 laps in a 7 hour race at Road Atlanta nor does it qual 30 laps in a 24 hour race at VIR. A completely stock 350 point Miata is not 5 laps slower than a Miata with an intake, and a stock NB Miata isn't 15 laps faster than a stock NA.

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11 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Hello all, Troy Truglio here. If you do not know me I am the team owner and driver for the McKibbin's Biohazard Racing MR2 swapped V6. I put that up right away so we can all be on the same page. Yes, I did not say a word throughout 50+ pages of people coming after me as I was told to have faith and stay out of it, so I did. Now all hell as broken loose with the new rules, some of it better and some not. I have put forth 14 petitions to the board over the years, not a single one accepted and not a single one put forth to benefit me or my team. I did them under two rules to myself and one is for the safety of all people and the other is to make CC better for Everyone.

 

So just by shear volume of 14 petitions the board should accept some of them?  Stop thinking of yourself as a martyr.  I submitted two petitions and one will be in place next year with tech sheets on the impound vehicles.  Maybe the board didn't think as highly of your petitions as you did, that is all.

 

11 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I have seen in the past years how we have had great races, but I think it can be better so a change is warranted

 

Just because YOU think it can be better, therefore it must be changed?  I guess you are the most important guy in the series, even more important than the board.

 

11 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Adding a larger front roll bar will not make you win or lose a race in reality. Also, stiffer springs negates the advantages of them anyway

 

A sway bar is a spring, just a different style.  Saying springs make you faster but sway bars don't is odd.

 

11 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I can not find a downside

 

When the E36 took laps isn't that what all the E36 teams say was driving them from the series?  You are proposing that pretty much every successful car that has ever podiumed should get laps.  Maybe your proposal will drive every successful team from ChumpCar, could that be a downside?

 

11 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

People that really want swaps or simply me out of the series will not be happy. I know there are some that do and that is fine

 

I think there are a few that want swaps out, I think most want swaps in as a symbol of Chumpy engineering.  A member of the board even has a swapped car.  Of all the comments I have ever read towards you I have never read that someone wants specifically you out, I have read that your speed should be scaled back in your earlier years.  I believe you took that as people targeting you whereas they were targeting your unicorn car that was significantly faster than the field.  It seems like the field has caught up so the clamour has died down.

 

Yes it seems like a few cars were targeted, your swap, the 400SX swap, the Mustang being double dipped.  Whatever, don't take that as YOU being targeted, it was the car/build being targeted.

 

Please do not take this as me targeting you, personally, your ideas, your thoughts, your opinions, your person, yourself, your interest, or your car.  This is just my opinion, myself, my thoughts, me.  It is not the thoughts, opinions, comments of ChumpCar, the board, other ChumpCar members, other people who exist in the world, or even other beings from other planets.^_^  Individually none of us are that important, however as a group we are.

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7 minutes ago, takjak2 said:

 

The problem with laps, positive or negative, is that the points do no scale well. 100 points for a turbo does not equal 10 laps in a 7 hour race at Road Atlanta nor does it qual 30 laps in a 24 hour race at VIR. A completely stock 350 point Miata is not 5 laps slower than a Miata with an intake, and a stock NB Miata isn't 15 laps faster than a stock NA.

 

If the points/lap don't scale well, then doesn't that undermine everything? Both directions. Some mods are discourages by their values in certain platforms.  Perhaps, make it non-linear.  475 pts = 1 bonus lap, 300 pts = 4 laps, 510 pts =+1 lap, 550 pts= +3 laps, 700 pts= + 8 laps, etc.

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Good to know.

 

I agree on the list. I think we all would need to grab a section with the cars we know and fill it in. Who knows our cars better than us.

 

I have two schedules made up now for next year. A chumpcar one and a AER/WRL one. I hope to use the chumpcar one still. I am 1094 points right now so it does not look good. I wonder how many others are going to have the AER/WRL schedule as well. With the series and options of tracks being more similar than ever, just look at RA in Feb, the choices are there.

We wont be running AER/WRL. Our car is completely outclassed in WRL when running our "Chump" spec. And we don't plan on spending the money to become competitive.

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13 minutes ago, BeastZ06 said:

If the points/lap don't scale well, then doesn't that undermine everything? Both directions. Some mods are discourages by their values in certain platforms.  Perhaps, make it non-linear.  475 pts = 1 bonus lap, 300 pts = 4 laps, 510 pts =+1 lap, 550 pts= +3 laps, 700 pts= + 8 laps, etc.

 

The the result is people strive to build a 500 point car, selecting the most efficient mods in the process. Not a bad thing. It just doesn't work as well when you open it to negative laps.

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31 minutes ago, BeastZ06 said:

 

If the points/lap don't scale well, then doesn't that undermine everything? Both directions. Some mods are discourages by their values in certain platforms.  Perhaps, make it non-linear.  475 pts = 1 bonus lap, 300 pts = 4 laps, 510 pts =+1 lap, 550 pts= +3 laps, 700 pts= + 8 laps, etc.

 

Classes by points, makes way more sense.  You can still have an overall, but give people who want to do the uber chumpy miserly build a trophy for their hard work.

Edited by Xph
bolded for emphasis

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