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Fellow Neon drivers


Plum crazy
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Fuel Tank question for the fellow Neon racers out there.

Are you running the stock fuel tank or have you gone to a cell.

Just wondering because the car does have a small tank and makes fuel management challenging.

we are still on the factory tank and with Road america our track to reference we struggled on fuel last year.

Thanks for the input.

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The model year of neon is pretty important when dealing with fuel.

 

first we have the '95 with the steel tank. It is 11.9 gallons. And has an external fuel filter.

 

The good years to have are 96-98(ish). This is because these years had the plastic tanks that hold 12.5 gallons and have a fuel accumalotor stock. Yes, it came from the factory with a rudimentary surge tank. Granted it will only hold pressure for maybe 3-5 seconds if the pumps draws air. But having one can easily gain another 10 min on track from my teams testing.

 

Also make sure your pre-filter(sock) on the canister is clean. The canister is gravity fed so it does not matter if the  sock is not always submerged in fuel as the pump draws from the canister. Another beauty of a design for endurance racing.

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14 hours ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

The model year of neon is pretty important when dealing with fuel.

 

first we have the '95 with the steel tank. It is 11.9 gallons. And has an external fuel filter.

 

The good years to have are 96-98(ish). This is because these years had the plastic tanks that hold 12.5 gallons and have a fuel accumalotor stock. Yes, it came from the factory with a rudimentary surge tank. Granted it will only hold pressure for maybe 3-5 seconds if the pumps draws air. But having one can easily gain another 10 min on track from my teams testing.

 

Also make sure your pre-filter(sock) on the canister is clean. The canister is gravity fed so it does not matter if the  sock is not always submerged in fuel as the pump draws from the canister. Another beauty of a design for endurance racing.

Thanks for getting back to me.

we are running a 98 DOHC and yes it has the 12.5 gallon tank.

I believe I just found the fuel issue.

You mentioned the surge tank.

I need to make sure I am talking the same thing here.

Plastic tank mounted in the front passenger fender with a couple vacuum lines going to a switch mounted on top of passenger fender well.

Am I on the right page here?

The reason I say I may have found a issue is that mine is missing. wasn't there when we got the car.

Lines from tank are open, tanked is vented to atmosphere.

I also haven't pulled the fuel pump assembly out yet.

This is on the winter list of things to do.

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No, that thing up front is your charcoal canister. 

 

I would disconnect most of that emissions stuff as that may be preventing your tank having a good vent. Because when you shut off the car to fuel that vent source closes. It might be an idea to add your own tank vent with a ball valve. 

 

 

Its found one a good portion of 96's, all 97's and early 98's. 

IMG_4245.JPG

Edited by Mopar 4 Life
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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

No, that thing up front is your charcoal canister. 

 

I would disconnect most of that emissions stuff as that may be preventing your tank having a good vent. Because when you shut off the car to fuel that vent source closes. It might be an idea to add your own tank vent with a ball valve. 

Per the rules, isn't changing the venting on a stock tank illegal?

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3 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Per the rules, isn't changing the venting on a stock tank illegal?

I don't think so.  I have seen lots of "stock tanks" vented in creative ways.  I have also witnessed the filler necks and filler systems modified.

 

Our vents are stock.

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I read

 

9.10.4. Over-flow vents may be installed

 

as allowing custom overflow venting if you follow the prescribed rules...   I would infer that the primary vent line should attach to the stock tank at the stock location, but where the hose goes from there is part of the fuel lines and not part of the "tank"  although even this type of change (installing a new fitting on the existing tank) has precedence for teams installing external low pressure pumps to feed an allowed surge tank; but there again I would suggest using existing lines or tank bulkheads is necessary.

 

because the rule concerning stock tanks is a sub bullet of 9.10.2

 

9.10.2.2. NON-OEM REPLACEMENT OR SWAPPED FUEL TANKS ARE NOT ALLOWED. It’s either stock, in the stock location, or an approved fuel cell with the proper installation.

 

I read this as not prohibiting or excluding to the rules set out in 9.10.4

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

No, that thing up front is your charcoal canister. 

 

I would disconnect most of that emissions stuff as that may be preventing your tank having a good vent. Because when you shut off the car to fuel that vent source closes. It might be an idea to add your own tank vent with a ball valve. 

 

 

Its found one a good portion of 96's, all 97's and early 98's. 

IMG_4245.JPG

I must have a late year 98 because I don't have that small canister in the picture.

Mine is straight from the regulator/filter to the fuel line.

I need to look into the tank venting.

Right now with the charcoal tank being gone the tank is just vented to atmosphere.

That evac soliniod isn't piped to anything, just plugged in to keep the check engine light off.

You mentioned a ball valve, why is there a need?

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2 minutes ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

The problem your probably running into is that the stock vent has the one way valve on it. And for the tank to vent properly you need the charcoal pump and canister. That is the reason for adding a ball check vent. I bet currently the vent that your using is the small one way on the top correct?

I need to dig into this more, with the carcoal tank being gone the vents from the tank are just hanging loose in the front fender.

 

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35 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Per the rules, isn't changing the venting on a stock tank illegal?

 

 

Yes, but you crazy engineers put a kind of evap system in. The main vent runs through a solenoid in the NC position. So technically the car needs to have the battery connected to vent properly in order to see the build up of pressure and vent.

 

So take your pick have electrical power on while fueling, use the one way valve vent and have negative pressure issues or install your own ball check vent?

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5 minutes ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

The problem your probably running into is that the stock vent has the one way valve on it. And for the tank to vent properly you need the charcoal pump and canister. That is the reason for adding a ball check vent. I bet currently the vent that your using is the small one way on the top correct?

Thanks for the feed back on my question by the way.

I meant to find you at Road America last fall but never got over to you.

That was our first time out, had a lot of fun and the car performed well.

My son and I are very happy with the choice of the neon. right now we are going through the our other motor.

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I don't think so.  I have seen lots of "stock tanks" vented in creative ways.  I have also witnessed the filler necks and filler systems modified.

Our vents are stock.

 

1 hour ago, Xph said:

I read

 

9.10.4. Over-flow vents may be installed

 

as allowing custom overflow venting if you follow the prescribed rules...   I would infer that the primary vent line should attach to the stock tank at the stock location, but where the hose goes from there is part of the fuel lines and not part of the "tank"  although even this type of change (installing a new fitting on the existing tank) has precedence for teams installing external low pressure pumps to feed an allowed surge tank; but there again I would suggest using existing lines or tank bulkheads is necessary.

 

I read this as not prohibiting or excluding to the rules set out in 9.10.4

 

1 hour ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

Yes, but you crazy engineers put a kind of evap system in. The main vent runs through a solenoid in the NC position. So technically the car needs to have the battery connected to vent properly in order to see the build up of pressure and vent.

 

So take your pick have electrical power on while fueling, use the one way valve vent and have negative pressure issues or install your own ball check vent?

 

Damn, I responded about half hour ago but apparently it didn't work.... here was my response:

I could have sworn that an older version of the BCCR prohibited altering vents on stock fuel tanks. Now that I've reviewed the 2017 BCCR, you guys are entirely correct.

(I don't have any of the old BCCR's with me here at work, but will be curious to look back on them once I'm home.)

Sorry for posting before I researched the rule properly.

Your interpretations are correct = my bad.

 

M4L (& others) -> Great advice for the OP to modify the system and vent it properly in order to refuel quicker, and with power off.

Once again, I apologize for posting bad info here.

Edited by mcoppola
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1 hour ago, mcoppola said:

 

 

 

Damn, I responded about half hour ago but apparently it didn't work.... here was my response:

I could have sworn that an older version of the BCCR prohibited altering vents on stock fuel tanks. Now that I've reviewed the 2017 BCCR, you guys are entirely correct.

(I don't have any of the old BCCR's with me here at work, but will be curious to look back on them once I'm home.)

Sorry for posting before I researched the rule properly.

Your interpretations are correct = my bad.

 

M4L (& others) -> Great advice for the OP to modify the system and vent it properly in order to refuel quicker, and with power off.

Once again, I apologize for posting bad info here.

 

 

Not every mfg. does their vents the same way. Obviously your EPA started to introduce some new rules and this was chryslers answer to have the tanks main vent to pump through a charcoal canister. Granted other Mfg's probably do it differently.

 

 The easy answer to all of this is to mandate fuel cells. But that is years in the making.

 

 

Edited by Mopar 4 Life
Grammar, and frackin autocorrect
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5 hours ago, mcoppola said:

 

 

 

Damn, I responded about half hour ago but apparently it didn't work.... here was my response:

I could have sworn that an older version of the BCCR prohibited altering vents on stock fuel tanks. Now that I've reviewed the 2017 BCCR, you guys are entirely correct.

(I don't have any of the old BCCR's with me here at work, but will be curious to look back on them once I'm home.)

Sorry for posting before I researched the rule properly.

Your interpretations are correct = my bad.

 

M4L (& others) -> Great advice for the OP to modify the system and vent it properly in order to refuel quicker, and with power off.

Once again, I apologize for posting bad info here.

no problem.

 

The rulebook can be a scary ever-changing place.

 

Kinda like that movie the labyrinth....

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Mopar 4 life is a great resource on these cars, i would do what he says ?. 

 

You should seriously consider a surge tank setup with the car. The stock tank is unbaffled and leaves 1/4 tank of fuel unused if you even think of turning the wheel. You will need every ounce of the useable fuel and go full stints if you plan to compete in the speed arms race of 2017.

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On 1/19/2017 at 9:50 AM, Mopar 4 Life said:

No, that thing up front is your charcoal canister. 

 

I would disconnect most of that emissions stuff as that may be preventing your tank having a good vent. Because when you shut off the car to fuel that vent source closes. It might be an idea to add your own tank vent with a ball valve. 

 

 

Its found one a good portion of 96's, all 97's and early 98's. 

IMG_4245.JPG

 

 

M4L - you mentioned adding a ball valve to the tank vent.  When I hear ball valve I think of a manually controlled valve that is either open or closed.  Are you referring to a manual valve you would open during fueling or a rollover valve (that uses a ball as a check valve)?  

 

 

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On 2017-01-21 at 10:14 AM, tneker said:

 

 

M4L - you mentioned adding a ball valve to the tank vent.  When I hear ball valve I think of a manually controlled valve that is either open or closed.  Are you referring to a manual valve you would open during fueling or a rollover valve (that uses a ball as a check valve)?  

 

 

 

We use  one of these (itvv08) on the flat part of the tank closest to the passenger side. 

 

Granted ours is made by ATL  but it's the same thing.

 

IMG_4267.JPG

Edited by Mopar 4 Life
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On 1/21/2017 at 8:06 AM, Black Magic said:

Mopar 4 life is a great resource on these cars, i would do what he says ?. 

 

You should seriously consider a surge tank setup with the car. The stock tank is unbaffled and leaves 1/4 tank of fuel unused if you even think of turning the wheel. You will need every ounce of the useable fuel and go full stints if you plan to compete in the speed arms race of 2017.

I agree, would anyone know that part number for the surge tank?

 

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On 1/19/2017 at 0:08 PM, Plum crazy said:

I must have a late year 98 because I don't have that small canister in the picture.

Mine is straight from the regulator/filter to the fuel line.

I need to look into the tank venting.

Right now with the charcoal tank being gone the tank is just vented to atmosphere.

That evac soliniod isn't piped to anything, just plugged in to keep the check engine light off.

You mentioned a ball valve, why is there a need?

OK been doing a little digging and found what the parts houses call a fuel filter.

But this filter has 3 lines coming out of it. 2 make sense 3rd not to much.

Does this surge setup require a different tank then what I am running?

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42 minutes ago, Plum crazy said:

OK been doing a little digging and found what the parts houses call a fuel filter.

But this filter has 3 lines coming out of it. 2 make sense 3rd not to much.

Does this surge setup require a different tank then what I am running?

 

The accumulator only has 2 lines, not 3. 

 

If it has 3 lines it's a fuel filter and it's meant for a '95.

 

Your best bet to find an accumulator is to hit the junkyards. I picked up 3 the last time I went to a southern race. 

 

I believe the last time I had a parts guy check these accumulators were NLA through dodge.

 

your plastic tank will work with this no problem at all.

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2 hours ago, Mopar 4 Life said:

 

The accumulator only has 2 lines, not 3. 

 

If it has 3 lines it's a fuel filter and it's meant for a '95.

 

Your best bet to find an accumulator is to hit the junkyards. I picked up 3 the last time I went to a southern race. 

 

I believe the last time I had a parts guy check these accumulators were NLA through dodge.

 

your plastic tank will work with this no problem at all.

Ok thanks very much, To the bone yards we go.

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