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swap "price" where does it come from?


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So I'm sure this has been covered before, but through my search effort I was not able to find the answer. The rules state there is a $1500 limit on any swap. Does this price come from car-part, craigslist, ebay? the rules aren't clear regarding validation of said cost, or where to get a basis for it...any help would be appreciated.  

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not to make this too complicated, say you were to pick up a blown long block for $400, spend $1000 to rebuild, you could claim that as the total cost of the engine? Or alternatively, if you picked up a junk yard block for $800 and did nothing to it, that would work as well?

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Replacement of warn and ventilated parts with OEM is free under the rules.

 

But if your "blown" engine had a rod out the side of the block, and the average price for your engine on something like car-part.com is 3x the price you claim, expect to get a BS call from tech or a protest.

 

So if I had a blown engine, and repaired it, I would likely pull a printout from car-part.com to use as corroborating evidence that you could have gotten the engine for about what you claim.

 

Same goes for, I got the car for 2000, and took the engine, and trans out of it...  since the trans isnt subject to the 1500, presumably you could sell other items, and you get a bunch of brackets, alternator ect, which you should be accounting for in your 1500...    In this case, pull car-part.com values and claim them as defensible instead of using a receipt.

 

If you claim to find a hemi in the back of a barn and got it for 100$ because the owner didnt know what it was, well expect to need video evidence and signed affidavits :).

Edited by Xph
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^^^ I think Xph is probably about right.

 

With no basis behind this, I suspect (hope) that this may be an area that tech will start calling BS on stuff that just doesn't seem right.  I am thinking that is the reason they left it a bit subjective and grey.  Hopefully they plan on using the old "Don't screw with us and we wont screw with you"/Bring a $500 car rule.

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17 minutes ago, kondata said:

i guess thats the point, with enough wiggle room, you can do just about anything. I was just wondering if there was a certain criteria to follow, but it sound like "close enough" mentality and the honor system is how we are to interpret the rules.  

I think your correct. Until to many folk screw with the system and then the rule book will get longer. 

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Wasn't the original intent of using Car-Part.com and Napa pricing for parts was to prevent fraudulent receipts, and correct for regional pricing differences?  If we have to go back to receipts there will be teams exploiting or legitimately have access to cheaper parts.  

 

For example, a junkyard XY89 motor might be $100 in Southern California but $5000 in Newfoundland.  Why should the exact same swap be legal in California but not in Newfoundland?  We should be striving for standard value for like builds.  

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7 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I think your correct. Until to many folk screw with the system and then the rule book will get longer  get slammed by tech and start whining like babies on the forums and say they are never coming back to race with chumpcar again!

  FTFY.  Or at least I hope my version is the correct one!

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I'm surprised the value of the engine isn't standardized. like everyone mentioned, seems silly to create all these new rules, make a super complex formula for PWR, exclude existing cars with previous swaps (that are now 1100 points) just to allow open turbos and vague values on swap motors. I mean, I'm not complaining since building a honda seems more advantageous now then ever before...but for others, this is probably prohibitive. 

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the performance of the swaps is ( to me ) the important part, and that's nicely dealt with by the formula.  The cost issue ( I personally don't think is nearly as important) possibly was added on to help show that the intent of the series is still budget grassroots racing.  Also the  engines going in are limited to ones that are on the vpi list. 

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31 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

When was the last time that rule actually got used?

 

I have no idea!  Probably never.  But, they/we were always chasing a cost-in formula as a hard rule. Where-as now the cost is (possibly intentionally, who knows) left as a grey area to give them that ability.

 

15 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

the performance of the swaps is ( to me ) the important part, and that's nicely dealt with by the formula.  The cost issue ( I personally don't think is nearly as important) possibly was added on to help show that the intent of the series is still budget grassroots racing.  Also the  engines going in are limited to ones that are on the vpi list. 

All true and good points.  In reality, does it matter if it really cost $2000 and you fudged it a bit? Maybe not.

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Big appreciation to Mike, I emailed him asking him to clarify what receipts should be used and if Car-Part.com should still be used.  I didn't ask for his agreement to paste his email here, so I will paraphrase his response instead.

 

 

  • Use Car-Part.com, average 10 lowest A grade for applicable parts.  This normalizes for regional pricing disparities.
  • For unique parts that C-P does not list, use published pricing from a store or website (e.g. Summit).  No Craigslist or person to person receipts.
  • Other teams must be able to replicate your swap for the same value.

Very impressed with his straight-forward and logical manner of closing down churn on this (and other) subjects.  Again, thanks @chisek!

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The rules are clear. But this is auto racing. Correct me if I am wrong but the objective is to figure out how to go faster within the rules.

This is the catch 22. For teams that do work, study and put forth the effort to improve they bring the vengeance of the racers who will not, cannot or do not have the talent or skills. And also the those who want spec racing and spend WAY to much time worrying about what other teams are doing. It is not possible to make everyone happy.

 

  This series is still driver oriented. Most teams do not understand this. The teams that win have the best team of drivers and preparation of cars. It is not complicated until the vocal few bring in the "what if" syndrome. 

 

If in doubt email your regional management. No more problems. Until the "W.I." teams get involved.   

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4 hours ago, miatainium said:

Wasn't the original intent of using Car-Part.com and Napa pricing for parts was to prevent fraudulent receipts, and correct for regional pricing differences?  If we have to go back to receipts there will be teams exploiting or legitimately have access to cheaper parts.  

Exactly. However, that was in the day where you could stick ANY engine in your car as long as the $$$ added up. Now we have the PWR swap rule, AND the requirement that engines come from cars on the VPI list.

If you have some fake receipts that really won't get you much of an advantage when you're also curtailed by those other two rules.

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Question already answered but here is my $0.02

 

The $1500 swap limit is meant to include things like transmission adapter plate, or super aftermarket subframe to accommodate a v6 miata as well as a running  and complete stock engine.

 

If someone wants to rebuild a worn out engine back to stock factory fresh, one can go right ahead and spend what it takes with no need to account for the build.

 

Want headers? Cams? Vtec head? Now its time to subtract some serious points to pay for those changes away from stock.

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5 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Question already answered but here is my $0.02

 

The $1500 swap limit is meant to include things like transmission adapter plate, or super aftermarket subframe to accommodate a v6 miata as well as a running  and complete stock engine.

 

If someone wants to rebuild a worn out engine back to stock factory fresh, one can go right ahead and spend what it takes with no need to account for the build.

 

Want headers? Cams? Vtec head? Now its time to subtract some serious points to pay for those changes away from stock.

 

Just took the top 10 of all A rated b18 GSR engines listed on car-part and it came out to $1570 average. Assuming your PWR formula works for your chassis, running a Vtec head is no problem. Or am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Exactly. However, that was in the day where you could stick ANY engine in your car as long as the $$$ added up. Now we have the PWR swap rule, AND the requirement that engines come from cars on the VPI list.

If you have some fake receipts that really won't get you much of an advantage when you're also curtailed by those other two rules.

Exactly

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50 minutes ago, kondata said:

 

Just took the top 10 of all A rated b18 GSR engines listed on car-part and it came out to $1570 average. Assuming your PWR formula works for your chassis, running a Vtec head is no problem. Or am I missing something?

 

Use 10 lowest A rated, not the ten highest.  

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