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location of surge tank


Dimsun Racing
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Hey gang, 

I have read about some guys installing a stock pump into a hole cut in the foam to hold it in place and having it more or less suspended by the hose. 

My thought was to do this with a Hydramat. Anyone ever tried this and have positive results? If yes, how did you adapt the small pump outlet to the larger AN fittings on the cell? Those surge boxes are a bit pricey and this would be a way to save some costs, but not if it's going to be a constant pain in the a$$.

Ron_e, were you able to use a stock type pump in that box? I'm not doing many mods to the engine so I don't expect to have huge fuel demands, and my car has that fuel pump driver module (and no return line) to control pressure. 

Has anyone used one of those fuel gauges the cell companies supply? How well do they work? Worth the $$?

Thanks for letting me jump into this discussion, cheers.

 

Roy

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We have an external lift pump to an external surge tank.  In the external surge tank is a stock Mustang pump.  The small pump outlets are converted to AN via brass compression fittings with tube nuts, I think 1/4" and 5/16" or something like that, your local specialty compression hose fitting place will have them.  You can save a bundle by going hard line as much as you can then converting to AN at the cell.

 

To use AN tube flares you should buy a special 37 degree flaring tool.  Most standard flares are 45 degrees, I was lucky enough to borrow a 37 degree tool.

 

Neon guys have a non-return fuel system as well, they can comment on how to make that work or anything special you have to do.

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Center rear was where I was thinking on the location also, nice to confirm others have the same idea.

 

This surge tank is expensive but it can eliminate the need for 2 pumps because it's filled by just the motion of the car due to the fact it's in tank.

 

I know a team running a Supra and they are having problems running the Hydramat in a fuel cell, they are getting starvation at about 1/3 to 1/4 tank.

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We run a returnless (fuel rail) system using the Corvette 33737 filter/regulator, it dumps the excess fuel back into our external surge tank.

efils9904.jpg

 

Simple set-up, just remember to bring the quick-release fitting tool to the racetrack along with your spare filter. A five minute filter replacement turned into a two hour repair when we had to buy and modify a tool just to install the spare. 

 

One of my fellow Alberta  teams was ribbing me at Castrol when I was trying to find the reason for our reduced power output (cell foam was starting to break down and clogged our fine filter but not the servicable coarse filter), wondering how a supposed race car mechanic couldn't keep a Fiero running. :rolleyes:

 

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On 2/3/2017 at 9:31 PM, RapidRoy10 said:

Has anyone used one of those fuel gauges the cell companies supply? How well do they work? Worth the $$?

 

Speedhut makes some very nice fuel gauges and senders. The gauges are programmable to any type of sender and the senders are height adjustable. About $70 for each.

 

The fuel cell companies are WAY overpriced on a lot of their accessories including the senders. For instance the ATL sender similar to the Speedhut units is $200

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On 2/4/2017 at 8:12 AM, mender said:

We run a returnless (fuel rail) system using the Corvette 33737 filter/regulator, it dumps the excess fuel back into our external surge tank.

 

 

Simple set-up, just remember to bring the quick-release fitting tool to the racetrack along with your spare filter. A five minute filter replacement turned into a two hour repair when we had to buy and modify a tool just to install the spare. 

 

One of my fellow Alberta  teams was ribbing me at Castrol when I was trying to find the reason for our reduced power output (cell foam was starting to break down and clogged our fine filter but not the servicable coarse filter), wondering how a supposed race car mechanic couldn't keep a Fiero running. :rolleyes:

 

The return line back into the surge tank, nice trick, I'm going to have to borrow that idea.

 

Yeah the last race at the Ridge we spent at least 4 hours changing fuel pumps and trying different things only to find out it was the primary fuel filter clogged. Check the easy things first duhh.

 

I have seen the foam swell and interfere with surge tank door operation. Definitely going to cut the foam back there to leave more room.

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I am working on a surge tank to compliment my HydraMat, even with the mat we see a little starvation in long high G turns during the last 15 minutes of a stint. I am working on version 2 of my low fuel warning in the surge tank using a sensor module I took from an old motorcycle tank I had laying around. 

 

IMG_20170205_16092801_zpsnbmvn97i.jpg

 

This module has 2 sensors, I will wire the first sensor to trigger an alarm on the digital dashboard. The second sensor will cause the whole dash to turn red and flash, or I could set the second alarm to trigger some seat electrodes if I really really want to get the drivers attention... 

 

 

IMG_20170205_16100501_zpsagyvtluv.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Update on our setup from Sonoma

 

We were starving for fuel on the last stint on both days. 6 laps from the end on Sat and 8 laps from the end on Sun. The fuel tank was not empty but the system was sucking air. You could tell when there was a yellow and the car slowed down it would get full pressure. So back to the drawing boards on this design.

 

Thinking add another in cell surge tank with no doors supplied by an in cell low pressure pump. Still using the 3 door surge tank as a pickup point for the low pressure pump.

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2 hours ago, Dimsun Racing said:

Update on our setup from Sonoma

 

We were starving for fuel on the last stint on both days. 6 laps from the end on Sat and 8 laps from the end on Sun. The fuel tank was not empty but the system was sucking air. You could tell when there was a yellow and the car slowed down it would get full pressure. So back to the drawing boards on this design.

 

Thinking add another in cell surge tank with no doors supplied by an in cell low pressure pump. Still using the 3 door surge tank as a pickup point for the low pressure pump.

 

I'd stop messing around with in-tank stuff, you're only robbing yourself capacity. What you're describing could be achieved very effectively by a normal external surge tank. If you want to discuss more, shoot me a PM.

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3 hours ago, Dimsun Racing said:

Update on our setup from Sonoma

 

We were starving for fuel on the last stint on both days. 6 laps from the end on Sat and 8 laps from the end on Sun. The fuel tank was not empty but the system was sucking air. You could tell when there was a yellow and the car slowed down it would get full pressure. So back to the drawing boards on this design.

 

Thinking add another in cell surge tank with no doors supplied by an in cell low pressure pump. Still using the 3 door surge tank as a pickup point for the low pressure pump.

Do an external surge tank instead and that'll solve your problem.

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One problem we encountered with the cell was that they insulate much better than the stock tank.  We could get a full stint early in the morning, but as the day progressed and ambient/track temps rose and fuel level dropped, the fuel in the tank (after being heated in the engine bay) would stay hot enough to cause vapor lock at the pump.  Just something to consider.

Edited by Bremsen
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Well I haven't started fixing this thing yet. And we were running an external surge tank with the stock fuel tank. And it would drain the system so effectively that once you got a fuel cut you only had 1 lap to come in.

 

The only thing that bothered me about it was it seemed dangerous. An aluminum tank very close to the suspension and rear drive axle, seems like a fire hazard.

 

And the Honda return point at the regulator has been mounted away from the engine on the fender well and the return line is aluminum tubing which dissipates heat so it might be okay. Decisions decisions.

 

On a side note the -6an vent rollover valve provided with the ATL cell is not enough when you have a 2" jug filler nozzle. So we are going to a -12 which is sort of hard to find unless you want to pay ATL an arm and a leg. Initially found one in Hong Kong but then found out that Summit has an unlisted -12an vent rollover valve for reasonable.

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On 2/5/2017 at 1:49 PM, mhr650 said:

I am working on a surge tank to compliment my HydraMat, even with the mat we see a little starvation in long high G turns during the last 15 minutes of a stint. I am working on version 2 of my low fuel warning in the surge tank using a sensor module I took from an old motorcycle tank I had laying around. 

 

This module has 2 sensors, I will wire the first sensor to trigger an alarm on the digital dashboard. The second sensor will cause the whole dash to turn red and flash, or I could set the second alarm to trigger some seat electrodes if I really really want to get the drivers attention... 

 

 

IMG_20170205_16100501_zpsagyvtluv.jpg

Do you have a part # for that sensor? or application please.

 

Seat electrodes wont work thru the firesuit.  Would need to convince the drivers to put patches on under their suit and plug it into the car. haha.

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8 hours ago, 3G said:

Do you have a part # for that sensor? or application please.

 

Seat electrodes wont work thru the firesuit.  Would need to convince the drivers to put patches on under their suit and plug it into the car. haha.

 

That sensor assembly came out of the tank of a Suzuki SV650, I used to race those and still have a bunch of parts laying around. I suspect that almost any modern motorcycle that has a fuel warning light will have a similar sensor. The mount is M18-1.5 the same as an O2 sensor, the threads in the surge tank are -8 or ¾ -16, this leaves plenty of material to drill out the -8 threads and install an M18 helicoil. Of course now I have an M18 helicoil kit with about 15 extra inserts that I doubt I will ever use.

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23 minutes ago, flyinglizard said:

 Is the helicoil fuel proof?  I would bet that it leaks. 

 

In this case the threads don't do any sealing there is a gasket under the head of the assembly, but they do make NPT helicoils.

 

http://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/sites/www.emhartamericas.com/files/downloads/Pipe_Thread_Inserts_HC903-rev4.pdf

 

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