rondogracing Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Hey everyone I'm Ron, I just found out about this thing called ChumpCar and LeMons racing 2 days ago, at age 35 and loving to drive cars fast you would think I would have found this by now but you know... Anyways I am looking to get my first Chumper and start building her up in hopes to spin her tires around the track for the first time in 2018 (Is a year - year and a half reasonable for a first time build?) I am on here today asking for advice on what is a good car to start with, though I know many have their own personal preferences on make and models, or engine size and weight, I am looking to get a more overall picture of what cars are easy to work on and build. Honda civics are a dime a dozen with an endless about of parts and after market upgrades and they are pretty easy to work on, but is it better to go for one that runs good from the start with a higher liter engine staring me at a higher VPI like a Ford Mustang needing little to no upgrades, or a car that runs good but has a small liter engine starting me with a lower VPI, leaving room for more up grades like a Toyota Tercel? As far as the build itself goes, I went school for a general bumper to bumper exp. we worked on everything except transmissions (Though it was the biggest section in the 600+ page curriculum), I tore 4 cylinder/ V-6/ V-8 engines down as far as possible and put them completely back together every day for a good month (The engines never got started so I am a little nervous about timing belts/ chains) we studied and removed and replace everything (Non- Body) on the cars from tires to ball joints, drum and disk breaks, tie rods, shocks, struts, coil overs, you name it. After I graduated, I worked at a Midas in Santa Clarita, California for a couple years where again I did so much more than just oil changes, tires and alignments, I replaced more valve covers and oil pans than I can counts, I have spent more time upside down in the driver seat of a car chasing electrical issues and brake switches, I have dropped a number of transmissions (Midas shipped them to trans shops to be re-built) and I have continued to work on my cars and trucks even after I left Midas. so overall I feel confidant to build my first Chumper myself and with the help of my gear head friends, and the few things I can't do I will take to a shop if they need to be fixed like a transmission. ok enough rambling from me below are some questions I have after looking into this for only two days, I want to thank everyone for taking the time to read this, and for any help that is offered up, I look forward to this journey and am excited about taking the first steps today. I am budgeting $5000.00 for this build (Just the build, not racing fees or gear) is that a good amount or is that too low? Once I have a car, what upgrades are worth spending the extra points? (exhaust, headers, ecu...) What upgrades are not worth spending points on? (adjustable coil overs, sway bars...) Do any weight reductions cost point? (I didn't see anything in section 4 of the rules about weight reduction, but i only read through it once) What are good things to remove from a car to reduce the weight? Automatic or Manuel Transmission? everyone was a first time racer, or built their first car, or put their first team together, what were the things you found difficult your first few times out? what things were simple? What things caught you off guard? Any other advice a first timer should know or consider? p.s. sorry if this is hard to read, English and Grammar were not my strong suits in school... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kentite Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 I'd take that $5000 and try to find something that is already built. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 It's almost always cheaper to start with someone else's finished car, you can get on track right away and continue developing the car. Usually they know what the car needs to go faster, so that gets you ahead of the game as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondogracing Posted February 20, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Thank you Kentite and Mender, buying an already built Chumper was something I thought about, but I always talked about doing a project car and the ideal of building it is something I like, however the head aches you can avoid buying a car that is already built is something that sounds good also, so I will weigh the two options, I will look at the cars on these threads that are built ready to go and keep looking into building one myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Buy a built one, race, learn what you want, build, sell first car to new new team 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin9 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I built my first car.. we did the get it to the track asap and see what this is all about, since none of us had ever turned a lap on a road course... We purchased an RX7 and was on track in 8 months, including getting a engine rebuild for about $5,000... I bought a roll cage kit and welded it up with a friend at his house, we basically did no upgrades over what I read online, didn't even check the toe. We ran our first race and were awfully slow. But, I had 4 guys with huge smiles including myself... so I kept tuning and learning and after 4 years, we are now ready to build a better, faster car... So I guess you can go either way.... we are probably going to do some rebuilding on the first car when the new car is done, and keep it around... but I see one day having two f-body platform cars with one as a rental car (busch car) and the one I'm building now as the "cup" car... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 We bought a running race car as our first car and built our second car. We didn't earn any trophies with our first car but we have been more successful with the second car. We sold our first car to another new team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer28173 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I have to agree with the guys that say "buy one". There are a LOT of cars available right now. You will have PLENTY of opportunity to work on improving the car, no matter what car you buy. Everyone who runs well is ALWAYS working on their cars - you are never "done". Buying one that is built will be cheaper than building (go figure, but it seems to be true). Spend a year or two really learning with that car, and then do your virgin build when you truly know what you are in for. You'll have a lot more fun that way, and save some money too. If you just can't listen to the wisdom of the forum, at least buy someone's half-finished build so you are closer to done than you'd be with a virgin build. Welcome to Chump! It is an addiction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintodave Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Depends on your goals... If you want to get on track before 18 months then buy a car and go race and learn. The caveat is you are buying someone else's work. But as others have pointed out, there have been a few pretty good deals popping up lately... If you have the spare time to do everything then go for the build. Consider all of the resources you will need to have yourself or pay for with a ground up build (this includes time - you need to have time or be prepared to buy someone else's...). Not meant to be discouraging at all, just to be realistic about it so you don't get 8 months into a build and go "damn"..... 18 months is reasonable for a new car build - depending on life it might take you +/- that time frame. If you are doing it all yourself and you work 50 hrs a week it will be different if you can sucker some friends into coming over a few nights a week to help. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowman Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Ron, I'm a new Chump too. I felt like I was reading my story in your post. I saw the Chump race at Thompson last fall, decided I was doing it. I set a similar budget and jump into building a Miata in December. I was just like you and wanted the project, and thought it would be cool to learn. For what it's worth though, I would have bought an existing car if I could do it over again. The process as been a ton of fun, but by the time I get to the track for Thompson in Sept, I'll be looking $5k in the rear view mirror. Buying an existing car would have gotten me on track quicker too. I can't say too much though. Everyone told me to buy a car too, yet here I am....haha. Figured I'd share my story since I'm kind of in the same boat. Best of luck to you man, hopefully we'll see each other out there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck Posted February 21, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Go to the general info section and read the So you want to be a chump thread ,best advice and knowledge, tells it all and true . Welcome to chump car the best, as I have done the rest, and having more fun in chumpcar than the last 40 years of going in circles dirt, paved ,and the drag thing too . Listen to these guys above save the super build for when you know what you want ,the car is just a piece of the puzzle. . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pintodave Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Don't feel bad, I'm dumb enough to have built two, and whats worse the second one was more of a solo build sometimes there just ain't no learn'n 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondogracing Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom, I think I am leaning more towards buying an already built Chumper now, for a couple reasons 1. Looking back I have tried building two off road trucks, the first I didn't have the money so it was a real slow going build that I ended up calling it only doing half of what I wanted to and just not being happy with it, the second I had way more than enough money to do everything I wanted to but traveled for work (Construction) working 50 plus hours a week and moving every six months and just didn't ever seem motivated to work on the truck so after towing it for the third time we moved I just sold it. 2. though I have the time and the money for this build my short term goal is to get out there and put laps in, my big picture goal is to have an official team that travels to maybe 4 ChumpCar races a year in a car that we built from scratch and know every nut and bolt, a car the team could collectively tare down completely and rebuild, to make a name for ourselves not just as a team but also as drivers (Not being they best or the team to beat, though I wouldn't mind that, but rather be a familiar name that people recognize at the track and have good attitudes, are know for racing hard but clean, and mostly I want to be the team that everyone says is having the most fun.) but RIGHT now I just want to get out there and turn laps, the rush of people zipping past on both sides of the car, the thrill of overtaking another car... most of all Right now I just want to get into the atmosphere of the ChumpCar World Series! 3.Like Justin9 said non of my team members nor myself have any on track racing exp, Yes growing up we would race each other through the Angeles National Forest in Palmdale, CA pushing each other and the clock each time we did, or found abandon dirt roads and fields and cut out a off road truck/ rally course and through our trucks and cars side way in the dirt and gravel, but there is nothing like being in a line of cars or being pushed from behind, or having to hit your marks lap after lap after lap and all the "racing" we did growing up means nothing on a real track out there with real racers. That said though I have confidence in the two other team mates I have in mind, one is a CHP officer and was in the top 2% of his academy in all driving exercises, and the other has built a couple Baja Bugs and been in a few desert races. I have full confidence we will adapt, but you need to be out there or at least at the local track on track days putting in the work, learning, gaining racing exp. You need to get to know the car, how it accelerates out of corners, how it brakes and leans going into a corner, how hard can you push in a corner before the wheels start to break loose. Then there is ware and tare on the car, what is the fastest you can push the car lap after lap with the least amount of tire ware and brake fade (All these races are endurance races after all) so I have taken the first big step and committing to building a team and getting out there! in order to do that we need a car. 4. I started looking at a realistic time table for the next 18 months A. I am waiting for the call for my next construction job in Houston, TX job starts March first I should be out there by mid March at the latest, once I am working it will only take a couple months to get the $5000.00 saved up and put aside for the car. B. If I am in Houston in time for the race in March I will be attending as a spectator, and will be at the race in Texas on in May again spectating picking racers minds and getting a feel for the controlled chaos of a ChumpCar World race weekend. C. Buy an already build Chumper by the end of 2017, and start getting out to track days as many times as I can and with my fellow team members D. See how the comfortable the team feels with the car and with the team in general when the local race approaches in 2018 and possibly make out ChumpCar World Series debut. If we are not ready then continue to test, practice, learn, and put in the work on race days through the rest of 2018 and prepare for a crazy 2019! E. Fully commit to a race in 2019 weather it is our first race or we have several under out belt. F. Finally spend the next two years deciding what care we want to make our first build (what class we want to be in, FWD/RWD/AWD, etc.), how much the car will cost, what the car's VPI will be, how much money and time it will take for all the required safety features to be installed (Roll cadge, kill switch, etc.) What performance parts I can afford points to put on the car and of those performance parts how much they will cost and how long they will take to install and dial them in, basically every thing that goes into a Chumper build. Once it is ready for the track sell the other car to a new team starting out. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 There are a few turn key cars here. The Camaro for 3k is a great deal. The cage alone (unless you have a good fab guy) is going to be more than that. I'd build what you know. If you are a FWD car and are used to driving those and working on those, grab one, if you are an old school V8 RWD guy go that route. Don't buy something just because it is cheap. Our car passes both Chump and LeMons, You really need to keep paperwork for LeMons, for Chumps...not so much since everything has a Fixed cost. Another thing is to two leagues are different, Chumps is way more competitive and have much faster cars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted February 21, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I am budgeting $5000.00 for this build (Just the build, not racing fees or gear) is that a good amount or is that too low? $5000 will get you on track, but you will not be competitive (in the east, at least). Depending on the car, you could finish the race on that budget, but you will likely break something and lose some race time fixing it. everyone was a first time racer, or built their first car, or put their first team together, what were the things you found difficult your first few times out? what things were simple? What things caught you off guard? 1. GO to a test day (HPDE) with the car when you think it is "done" 2. Go to a test day with the drivers when you think you are happy with them 3. TEST (did i say that already) 4. Build everything with reliability in mind. Ignore speed until you get the car to last. If you are new to building race cars and new to endurance racing in general, I would agree with others above - Buy an already built car and go racing. Here is my build thread. I used it as a sort of "archive" to remember all the things I did. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nissanguy38501 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Too bad you guys aren't closer... I have a car here with a logbook and a ton of spares that needs a new home that I'd let go of for $1000.00 for everything... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin9 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 To also build (pun intended) off what Dave said, building your own cars, is not only the cash involved with actual parts for the cars... but you have to think about the stuff you don't have, tool wise, that you need. Even this time around there are tools and things that I'm buying because I didn't have them... yesterday I bought a 20 ton shop press... last week I bought a set of those AN wrenches, last month I purchased a new 9,000 lb lift, because my knees were about to explode after 5 years of being on hard concrete...... So to build a car, which I would say we would call the right way.. max weight reduction, all new suspension bushings, etc... it takes a while... why, because after 5 years of hard racing, we have all figured out that that needed to be done from the get-go... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miatainium Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 $5000 will get you on track, but you will not be competitive (in the east, at least). Depending on the car, you could finish the race on that budget, but you will likely break something and lose some race time fixing it. Agreed, and there's that word again. Competitive is a nebulous term because to some it means being on the podium, or Top 3, 5 or 10, maybe top 3 in-class, or maybe top 10% overall. It sounds like @rondogracing has the right attitude about being at races and making a name for his team as regulars that are good spirited, good drivers and finish races. I think the $5000 budget is not achievable if you were to build your own car and less likely to build a competitive car for whatever your definition is. Good decision going with a budget built car. You're already talking about running the 2019 season so there's ample time to decide on the next car once you've got some experience and decide how much you want to spend ongoing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted February 21, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 $5000 will get you on track, but you will not be competitive (in the east, at least). Depending on the car, you could finish the race on that budget, but you will likely break something and lose some race time fixing it. I disagree. I think you could build a podium car with a $4,000 budget. Just not a fancy Bimmer, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. Something like a B13 Sentra SE-R would work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I disagree. I think you could build a podium car with a $4,000 budget. Just not a fancy Bimmer, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. Something like a B13 Sentra SE-R would work. Maybe an experienced team but doubtful for a new team. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondogracing Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thank you, I looked at LeMons first actually and could hardly find a car for less than $500.00 that ran, that is why I am leaning towards ChumpCar I feel it allows you to build a car for dependability so you can finish a race. From what I understand reading through the ChumpCar rules once as long as the car I buy has a VPI 500 or less I can do a complete car rebuild pretty much everything as long as it is all OEM without gaining a single point, and even be able to beef up the suspension (Non-adjustable) and brakes (2X rule). where what I got from LeMons everything you buy for the car even the labor if you pay someone to work on it goes towards your $500.00 limit, leave very little to no wiggle room. Car wise, I like them all, I have grown FWD cars all my life (75% of affordable cars are FWD) and have pushed them through canyon passes often, I do often tend to look for RWD drive cars or trucks when I am looking for a new ride but that is mainly because I drive on many dirt roads and love just stepping on the gas around bends in the road and have the rear end slide out, but that is not what you want on a race track. That is why right now I am really just looking to see what is out there what I can afford that is already built in my price range, then while we are practicing and racing the bought care really look at what we want to build. The main thing I have to learn is growing up we never really had extra money, only got another car when the last one dies and only worked on our cars when something broke and replaced it with the cheapest replacement part out there... so I always learned to drive a car and adjust myself the the car, I need to start learning performance tech, and terminology so we can build the cars to our driving... I will have to learn that... Sorry that is a long way of saying thanks you for the advice I see your point. on a side note I keep hearing about these logbooks or log check lists, is there a place on here to download and print one? There are a few turn key cars here. The Camaro for 3k is a great deal. The cage alone (unless you have a good fab guy) is going to be more than that. I'd build what you know. If you are a FWD car and are used to driving those and working on those, grab one, if you are an old school V8 RWD guy go that route. Don't buy something just because it is cheap. Our car passes both Chump and LeMons, You really need to keep paperwork for LeMons, for Chumps...not so much since everything has a Fixed cost. Another thing is to two leagues are different, Chumps is way more competitive and have much faster cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondogracing Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thank you sir, yeah Practice, Practice, Practice that is my team motto! Like I pointed out above right now the goal is to get in the race and spinning laps round the track. $5000 will get you on track, but you will not be competitive (in the east, at least). Depending on the car, you could finish the race on that budget, but you will likely break something and lose some race time fixing it. 1. GO to a test day (HPDE) with the car when you think it is "done" 2. Go to a test day with the drivers when you think you are happy with them 3. TEST (did i say that already) 4. Build everything with reliability in mind. Ignore speed until you get the car to last. If you are new to building race cars and new to endurance racing in general, I would agree with others above - Buy an already built car and go racing. Here is my build thread. I used it as a sort of "archive" to remember all the things I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondogracing Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Thanks, Let me get back to work and put the money away but if you still have it in a few months when I am ready I would be interested, what kind of car is it? is it ChumpCar ready? got any pictures? when I pull the trigger to buy a built Chumper I am willing to travel to pick it up seeing most people I have seen selling cra on here are not from AZ or TX Too bad you guys aren't closer... I have a car here with a logbook and a ton of spares that needs a new home that I'd let go of for $1000.00 for everything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted February 21, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Maybe an experienced team but doubtful for a new team. Good point. A new team would not know where to efficiently spend and where not to waste money. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted February 21, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I disagree. I think you could build a podium car with a $4,000 budget. Just not a fancy Bimmer, Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. Something like a B13 Sentra SE-R would work. I would love to see you do this, at a major east race (Sebring, VIR, RAtlanta, etc). Not going to happen (IMO). Look at the podium teams from RA and think about the $ spent to get there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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