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3 ball joints in 4 races - normal?


turbogrill
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Hi,

 

We have had at least 3 ball joints go bad in 4 races. All of them has been MOOG and bought from Amazon.

A few spin outs but no major crashes or so.

 

I assume this is not normal? 

 

What can I be doing wrong? They come prelubed, am I supposed to fill them with grease anyway?

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Hmm    Have you lowered your ride height ..  never had a problem with moog suspension parts ..  knockoffs in a moog box ?    Something binding or bottoming out .. I always grease but they shouldn't wear out that quick ..

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

When you take your Springs out put your suspension back together and move it up and down and see when it bottoms out .. if you are racing with your balljoints binding and bottomed out its trying to rip them apart and they will never last ..   make sure everything moves freely beyond your ride height ..   low is good but too low = problems

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2 hours ago, okkustom said:

When you take your Springs out put your suspension back together and move it up and down and see when it bottoms out .. if you are racing with your balljoints binding and bottomed out its trying to rip them apart and they will never last ..   make sure everything moves freely beyond your ride height ..   low is good but too low = problems

 

There's a reason for bump stops. Ball joints, shocks, and fender/tire clearance are not meant to be travel limiting devices.

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8 hours ago, okkustom said:

When you take your Springs out put your suspension back together and move it up and down and see when it bottoms out .. if you are racing with your balljoints binding and bottomed out its trying to rip them apart and they will never last ..   make sure everything moves freely beyond your ride height ..   low is good but too low = problems

 

Hmm...maybe this is the case. I will check next time. Otherwise I would just have to keep replacing them

 

8 hours ago, Ron_e said:

How are your ball joints mounted?  Can you post a pic?

 

This is how it sits on control arm (top one):

 

DSC_0772_zps9a9840e9.jpg

 

This is everything assembled:

 

ball.jpg

 

 

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How exactly are they failing? Is the ball pulling out, is the entire assembly ripping out of the control arm?

 

 The control arm in the lower pic assembled on the car looks different from both of the ones in the top pic, unless I have not had enough coffee yet.... 

 

Edited by pintodave
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7 hours ago, pintodave said:

How exactly are they failing? Is the ball pulling out, is the entire assembly ripping out of the control arm?

 

 

There is play in the wheel. First it feels like a bad wheel bearing but when looking closer it's play in the ball joint. 

Also if I move my ball joint with my hand (after it's been removed) the movement is not smooth. the casing it self is intact. It LOOKS fine from the outside.

 

7 hours ago, pintodave said:

 

 The control arm in the lower pic assembled on the car looks different from both of the ones in the top pic, unless I have not had enough coffee yet.... 

 

It's only the top control arm in the top picture, the bottom control arm is for something else. Apologize for the confusion.

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Did you hack one of the bad ball joints up to see what was failing? Is it wallering out the casing, is it whatever liner material they use that is failing, is it the pivot ball that is failing? If your lower control arm angle isn't all jacked up then I'd say definitely try a different brand. Find a drive on lift so you can look at everything while at ride height and see if anything looks bound up or out of whack.

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Moog is no longer the brand it once was. Lotsa of offshore in the boxes.

There was a time that I only sold and recommended it- now I have many track cars with limited life on them.

 

Lately I have used Dorman and Mevotech with success.

 

Moog is no longer worth premium money- IMO.

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On 3/24/2017 at 5:05 AM, turbogrill said:

 

Hmm...maybe this is the case. I will check next time. Otherwise I would just have to keep replacing them

 

 

This is how it sits on control arm (top one):

 

DSC_0772_zps9a9840e9.jpg

 

This is everything assembled:

 

ball.jpg

 

 

 

 

Clearly there is some confusion. The top picture arms are from an S30 (240,260,280Z), the bottom pic is of an S130 (280ZX)

 

The bottom pic ball joint almost looks like it's going into bind just like it sits. Lower ball joints typically last the life of the vehicle on the street, yes this is racing but if you keep them greased even the cheaper ones should last a while.

 

With the Z and the ZX front suspension the shock/strut acts as the bump stop. It limits the travel in both up and down directions.

 

Take the spring off and put everything back together. Run the suspension through it's full range of motion. Steering all the way to one side then shock all the way up and down, then steering all the way to the other side and shock again up and down. The suspension should be stopping on the shock both up and down. If the ball joint goes into bind before that something is wrong part, wrong assembly, or bent. "Bind" in this case means the ball joint is at it's limit of travel and the suspension (shock) is not.

 

Have you changed anything else besides cutting the springs?

Edited by Dimsun Racing
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48 minutes ago, Dimsun Racing said:

 

 

Clearly there is some confusion. The top picture arms are from an S30 (240,260,280Z), the bottom pic is of an S130 (280ZX)

 

The bottom pic ball joint almost looks like it's going into bind just like it sits. Lower ball joints typically last the life of the vehicle on the street, yes this is racing but if you keep them greased even the cheaper ones should last a while.

 

With the Z and the ZX front suspension the shock/strut acts as the bump stop. It limits the travel in both up and down directions.

 

Take the spring off and put everything back together. Run the suspension through it's full range of motion. Steering all the way to one side then shock all the way up and down, then steering all the way to the other side and shock again up and down. The suspension should be stopping on the shock both up and down. If the ball joint goes into bind before that something is wrong part, wrong assembly, or bent. "Bind" in this case means the ball joint is at it's limit of travel and the suspension (shock) is not.

 

Have you changed anything else besides cutting the springs?

 

Oops! Sorry for the picture confusion. Both are stolen.

 

Good point with the ball joint, I haven't tried that. Maybe that is what is happening. Got the following front suspension mods:

- MSA Camber adjustment bushing (The LCA bushing pushes the control arm outwards)

- T3 tension rods (adds some more caster)

- Cut springs and KYB shocks.

 

 

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So I am not losing my mind, all 3 control arms pictured (2 in top pic, one assembled on car) are different...

 

The pic of it assembled - that is in full droop with the wheel fully cranked to one side. How much does that arm raise up when there is weight on it. Your homework for the weekend is pics of your car on a drive on lift (or dig a hole in your front yard :lol:)

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5 hours ago, pintodave said:

So I am not losing my mind, all 3 control arms pictured (2 in top pic, one assembled on car) are different...

 

The pic of it assembled - that is in full droop with the wheel fully cranked to one side. How much does that arm raise up when there is weight on it. Your homework for the weekend is pics of your car on a drive on lift (or dig a hole in your front yard :lol:)

 

They are all different :)

 

My bad, I was stealing photos online

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 3/23/2017 at 10:07 PM, turbogrill said:

Hi,

 

We have had at least 3 ball joints go bad in 4 races. All of them has been MOOG and bought from Amazon.

A few spin outs but no major crashes or so.

 

I assume this is not normal? 

 

What can I be doing wrong? They come prelubed, am I supposed to fill them with grease anyway?

 

Thread from the dead

Just had a moog rep here (responding to our quality complaints) Great guy, career car guy with tons of life experience, honest, well versed etc. trying to show/explain that nothing has changed in decades despite us recounting a couple of year old incidents where a customer broke/pulled chevy 3500 balls apart.

He reports, the company would be interested in forensically investigating any failures...

 

Any chance you have some broken moog junk still hanging on your wall of shame?

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Thread from the dead

Just had a moog rep here (responding to our quality complaints) Great guy, career car guy with tons of life experience, honest, well versed etc. trying to show/explain that nothing has changed in decades despite us recounting a couple of year old incidents where a customer broke/pulled chevy 3500 balls apart.

He reports, the company would be interested in forensically investigating any failures...

 

Any chance you have some broken moog junk still hanging on your wall of shame?

 

wow!

 

I will look around in the garage!

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7 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Thread from the dead

Just had a moog rep here (responding to our quality complaints) Great guy, career car guy with tons of life experience, honest, well versed etc. trying to show/explain that nothing has changed in decades despite us recounting a couple of year old incidents where a customer broke/pulled chevy 3500 balls apart.

He reports, the company would be interested in forensically investigating any failures...

 

Any chance you have some broken moog junk still hanging on your wall of shame?

What was the name of the guy you talked to?  I work for Federal Mogul also, (Moog parent company).  My job is technical product specialist.  I can send off anything for analysis. Our engineers love to look at broken parts.  I will be in St. Louis at the Moog R&D facility next week.  Please reach out to me with any Moog failures.  The type of racing we do is the ultimate test on aftermarket parts.  clifford.beisler@fmmotorparts.com

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1 hour ago, Lethal Cliff said:

What was the name of the guy you talked to?  I work for Federal Mogul also, (Moog parent company).  My job is technical product specialist.  I can send off anything for analysis. Our engineers love to look at broken parts.  I will be in St. Louis at the Moog R&D facility next week.  Please reach out to me with any Moog failures.  The type of racing we do is the ultimate test on aftermarket parts.  clifford.beisler@fmmotorparts.com

Ill send you my wheel bearings when they are toasted.  Probably the -3 that we run up front on 285 width tires...We chose Moog over Timken.

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