Dewey Havta Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Finishing the installation of the cell and see the rules require a "cover" for the cell. I just need to know if that cover is intended to cover the cell or be a seperation "wall" behjnd the driver enclosing the rear of the car. Which would be a pain in the ass to install before RA in 3 weeks. Photos of some covers in hatchbacks would be a great help. Thank you. Over 50 views and no one has any advice?!? C'mon Chumpers including staff, even a smartass comment would be acceptable at this point. Edited March 31, 2017 by Dewey Havta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triangle42 Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 On 30/03/2017 at 0:34 AM, Dewey Havta said: Finishing the installation of the cell and see the rules require a "cover" for the cell. I just need to know if that cover is intended to cover the cell or be a seperation "wall" behjnd the driver enclosing the rear of the car. Which would be a pain in the ass to install before RA in 3 weeks. Photos of some covers in hatchbacks would be a great help. Thank you. Over 50 views and no one has any advice?!? C'mon Chumpers including staff, even a smartass comment would be acceptable at this point. No cover is required for a cell, the steel outer wall of the cell is considered safe. You can add an extra firewall if you so choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 1, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Triangle42 said: ^^^Well Done!!^^^ Ron's comments (above post) about the steel container covering the cell are mentioned in section: 9.10.2.7. ALL FUEL CELLS MUST BE ENCLOSED IN A METAL CANISTER / ENCLOSURE. However, (although I'm not 100% sure), the fuel filler tube, may need additional coverage, based on the following: 9.10.3.5. Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flex-conduit is acceptable. Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.) The example above does a great job of covering the cell, and the filler tube, isolating them out of the vehicle's interior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Sammich Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 On 3/30/2017 at 0:34 AM, Dewey Havta said: C'mon Chumpers including staff, even a smartass comment would be acceptable at this point. My dog is pregnant and you smell of White Castle sliders and Bourbon... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Havta Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 Thanks Hammy ! I was thinking about the air speed velocity of a swallow yesterday. Thanks to 42(well done !!), Ron and Coppola. We're running steel braided line throughout the car so we're good there. After re-reading, for the 68th time the rule book ... ■9.10.2.12.2. The fuel cell is enclosed by a full metal canister AND a separate bulkhead that encloses the fuel cell and canister.■ ... Is part of the subset of rules regarding a cell mounted in the passenger area of the car ie: passenger seat area. So ultimately I think we're good. Though if time allows I'll probably be fab'ing in some sheet metal just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 If your car is a hatchback, then the cell is in the passenger area and therefore needs a metal enclosure, IMHO. If you have a sedan, there would be a firewall where the rear seats mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Havta Posted April 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 ^^that's the biggest question I wanted a concrete answer for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) This has passed tech for the last three years: The fuel filler tube goes to an external filler neck and the passenger compartment is completely sealed off from the fuel. The fuel cell is encased in its metal enclosure plus I added a second layer of steel around that for the required bulkhead. I also plated the NASCAR door bars to further protect the cell from possible instrusion. The fuel transfer lines that go from the cell to the surge tank are SS braided lines as required in the rules. I described my intent in detail and sent pictures of the construction and fabrication while in progress to my regional tech to make sure that the final product passed inspection once we got to the track. Edited April 1, 2017 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 1, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Mender, I've seen your pics before and read your description of the fuel cell and fill tube setup in your Fiero. I also consider your opinions and input to be of the highest level. However, I'm not sure how tech allows the plastic/rubber filler tube to be exposed within the car like it is shown. It seems to me that it would need to be covered per this: 10 hours ago, mcoppola said: 9.10.3.5. Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flex-conduit is acceptable. Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.) Edited April 1, 2017 by mcoppola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdave Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 Interpreting rules has been stated to be similar to arguing over the 2nd amendment per the X bar thread. The way I would interpret the fuel rules would absolutely not allow the above pic, however I seem to be off on how to interpret "X bar is allowed". The good part about both rules is they are safety and the rules are a minimum, so you can do better than the allowed minimum. On our car It was easiest to install a lexan sheet attached to the back side of the main hoop. This left the fuel inlet tube visible so you could see when it was almost full and avoid spilling. We did provide some air flow in the now enclosed hatchback area to avoid vapor build up and fogging issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 I know that out of sight = out of mind but how much more protection does enclosing a thick NASCAR approved filler hose give? MIght as well have the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 1, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 For the record, we have the same setup for the fuel filler tube in our Focus. The fuel cell is in the back seat area. I built a box that covers the top of the cell, (perhaps I didn't need to), but the NASCAR approved filler hose is exposed to the interior. I like it because it's easy to see when the cell is full when refueling. We ran a WRL race with this setup and passed tech no problem. I'm not sure if chumpcar rules/tech dictate that the filler tube should be encased in metal. 9.10.3.5 seems to me that it should be??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 1, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) @Dewey Havta here's a simple method of enclosing the cell, if you decide to. I used 1" aluminum angle bolted to the top cover of the cell perimeter and then covered it with a box. I wanted to angle the side end caps, but was in a hurry to finish it up a day before loading up for a race, and the simple rectangular box was quicker to fab up. Threaded nut-inserts or dzus fasteners can be put in the 1" angle pieces so you just have to fasten the box down from the outside. (The side panel was not riveted onto the rest of the box when this pic was taken,) Edited April 1, 2017 by mcoppola 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewey Havta Posted April 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) Mcoppola this is what I have in mind thanks for the pic to solidify my intentions. I'll be building the box tomorrow. Thank you to everyone who responded with ideas/opinions. Looking forward to seeing some of you in 3 weeks at RA. Come say hi #270. Edited April 2, 2017 by Dewey Havta 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremsen Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 My setup is very similar to Menders and has passed tech for the last 3years. Fuel does not sit or flow in the fuel filler or vent lines. All fuel lines are stainless braid covered with an fittings. I do not have any high pressure lines inside the cabin. I have not looked at the cell rules for other series. Since that is where the OP is racing in a few weeks seems that's where he should be focusing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBone Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 In the end, it's your life that's on the line. If it's allowed, and you feel it's safe, then that should be the end of it. (Speaking generically, not commenting on anyone's fuel cell install) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 2, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Bremsen said: Fuel does not sit or flow in the fuel filler tube or vent lines. ^^It does if you overfill the cell, (which is what some racers are doing to get max distance/time between fuel stops.) That's why chumpcar limited fuel filler tubes to 3" diameter. Even though my filler tube is way in the back of the car, I will be covering it for additional safety. (May put a trap door over it to flip up at fuel stops so we can still see when the cell is full.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremsen Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 I tend to agree with tbone. If it makes you feel safe then by all means do what you want. Nobody is going to argue going above and beyond with safety equipment. I personally feel very safe with my install, way safer than the factory tank for certain. I've seen pro installations that also had exposed fill/vent tubes so I have no concerns with it from a safety standpoint. I've seen how long it takes for those tubes to fail in a direct fire. If you want an additional bulkhead then knock yourself out, but don't try to argue the requirement into a rule based on what you believe is the right way because I feel mine is equally as "right". Additionally, my install is designed so that it cannot be overfilled beyond the vent overflow, which is placed as low as I could get it. My thoughts are that tech needs to be able to recognize system installs that are both unsafe and designed to provide an advantage of significant additional fuel capacity. If you, as an engineer and competitor, see a system that is specifically designed to do so (ie, vents placed excessively high that will trap additional fuel) then by all means you should notify tech. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted April 2, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bremsen said: I tend to agree with tbone. If it makes you feel safe then by all means do what you want. Nobody is going to argue going above and beyond with safety equipment. I personally feel very safe with my install, way safer than the factory tank for certain. I've seen pro installations that also had exposed fill/vent tubes so I have no concerns with it from a safety standpoint. I've seen how long it takes for those tubes to fail in a direct fire. If you want an additional bulkhead then knock yourself out, but don't try to argue the requirement into a rule based on what you believe is the right way because I feel mine is equally as "right". Additionally, my install is designed so that it cannot be overfilled beyond the vent overflow, which is placed as low as I could get it. My thoughts are that tech needs to be able to recognize system installs that are both unsafe and designed to provide an advantage of significant additional fuel capacity. If you, as an engineer and competitor, see a system that is specifically designed to do so (ie, vents placed excessively high that will trap additional fuel) then by all means you should notify tech. I also agree with both of you, @Bremsen & Tbone, and Mender 100% - that your installs, as well as my exposed filler tube are ok as is. Someone (maybe mender) demonstrated how long it takes to burn through one of the clear rubber tubes, and it was very impressive. I would never be the person to argue this into making it a rule - in fact I don't think this type of filler tube needs to be covered. I just wish the rule was spelled out clearer. If I decide to cover my fill tube, it will mostly be so that I'm assured tech will be ok with it. As I mentioned, we raced one time with it, as is, in WRL - but when I brought it up to Dan Diggs (Chumpcar East Tech) last summer when I worked the Gingerman race, he suggested that I cover it. I'm merely pointing out an example where Chumpcar rules could be clarified. I couldn't give the OP a solid answer, but showed him some examples, and gave him food for thought. Edited April 2, 2017 by mcoppola 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 It's really hard to clarify rules when an overriding goal is to have a short rule book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 2, 2017 Report Share Posted April 2, 2017 Even though I feel my present set-up is very safe, I'll likely be changing it to fully enclosed to conform to local track rules. I'll be using a lexan viewing port so I can still see when it's getting full. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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