anybody here familiar with floor mounted underfoot pedal boxes?

[Ham Sammich]

This isnt' a rules debate. 

 

I have 2 Wilwood pedal box asemblies that are not going to work for what I have going on.  I spent 6 hours mocking up various ideas, so far, I can't pull it off.  I need to have the master cylinders underfoot.  Is there anything other than the Tilton 600 series?  or is this about it?  I'm interested in this exact setup.

 

Figured this might be useful to show. Here's the jig I made to replicate the pedal locations that were in the car (that we got used to and liked).  I figured this would be the easiest way to align new pedals in the car without a driver and the limited room with the door bars and all for somebody to help mock up pedals.

 

 

They're adjustable in height, and then swing out of the way so you can mock in the new pedal box.  Makes it easy to replicate your pedal locations if you were happy with them and wanted to duplicate their positions.

 

 

 

 

Not happy with either of these options so far.  You can 'sort of' see that if the floor mounts pushed back another 3-4" and the cylinders were underfoot this gives me the best room and eases the steering column u-joint problems.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ham Sammich

[cagedruss]

Those are spending. Isn't there a fee for those?

[Xph]

Keep in mind having the masters under the pedals will raise your foot position..   this will both change where you want your pedals mounted and potentially the ideal layback on your seat..

[Ham Sammich]

4 hours ago, cagedruss said:

Those are spending. Isn't there a fee for those?

 

Remember the first line... "this isn't a rules debate". 

 

3 hours ago, Xph said:

Keep in mind having the masters under the pedals will raise your foot position..   this will both change where you want your pedals mounted and potentially the ideal layback on your seat..

 

2.3" according to the blueprint.  if we should lose brakes on one end of the car, we still have some brakes. This came about after watching my son blow off the track with no brakes after blowing a rear master cylinder. We initially had a drum brake rear car, and had it set up with the most beautiful feel and braking.  Turns out there was a downside, we blew a rear cylinder the pedal instantly went to the floor, no brakes. (The other car is already disc rear).   Mercifully he shot off at only about 60mph or so.  I said I wasn't gonna watch that happen again.

 

I was shooting pictures when it happened, this was just as he came to a stop. I watched it unfold.    If I was particularly worried about the pedals, or felt it cheaty... I wouldn't have posted pics or asked for help on the matter. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Ham Sammich

[morganf]

It is my understanding that civic have two brake circuits for this reason that's why the proportioning valves have two circuits. Unless of course you combine them to go through an adjustable proportioning valve.

[Bremsen]

CNC is the only other one that I can think of, but I'd strongly suggest the Tilton.  Hard to beat the quality for the price.  The only other one that I can think of is AP, but you can probably buy 5 civics for the price of one floor mounted pedal box.

 

PM me if you have any specific questions about the Tilton, I happen to work with the engineer that designed the 900 and 600 series.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Bremsen

[mender]

Do you have any pictures of where the steering shaft goes through the stock pedals? I assume you're using one of these:

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/brg-450024/overview/

 

I don't like floor-mounted pedals because as the pedal goes long, your foot has to start pressing down instead of forward, complicating an already awkward moment. I much prefer the overhung pedal assemblies and would suggest working with the positioniing of that for clearance around the steering.

[Bremsen]

The AP engineers I've spoken to about the differences state that floor mount boxes are significantly better since the motion of the pedal matches the motion of the drivers foot.  Hanging boxes create an awkward leg/foot motion where the pedal moves away from the drivers foot during its swing.  The only reason they even make hanging boxes is because certain rule sets require them.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Bremsen

[Ham Sammich]

I thought that as well.  Until we blew that rear cylinder, instantly draining the master cylinder as the pedal went to the floor. I dunno the mechanics of what should happen, only what did happen.   and we're gonna try something different on this car.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, morganf said:

It is my understanding that civic have two brake circuits for this reason that's why the proportioning valves have two circuits. Unless of course you combine them to go through an adjustable proportioning valve.

 

 

[mender]

9 hours ago, Bremsen said:

The AP engineers I've spoken to about the differences state that floor mount boxes are significantly better since the motion of the pedal matches the motion of the drivers foot.  Hanging boxes create an awkward leg/foot motion where the pedal moves away from the drivers foot during its swing.  The only reason they even make hanging boxes is because certain rule sets require them.

And yet (almost) every car I've driven with floor boxes (911, bug, 2002tii, stock car) felt wrong. I didn't notice in the FF but the pedal travel was very short.

 

I have to say I can't picture a pedal arrangement that has the pedal moving toward the driver's foot during its swing.

[Ham Sammich]

We've got a few simulators we built and most have floor mounted pedals.  I don't care for them compared to a swing mount.  But it is what it is.

 

in this cockpit they were swing, but short.  I thought they were more tolerable than the floor.

 

That one had the best e-brake feel of any we'd built.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ham Sammich

[Xph]

We were looking at

 

Or..  adapting one of these with the stock pedal to run into the cabin on the dash bar..

 

For now now we kept the e-brake it's too handy for starting parking and moving the car around off track...

 

top option is around 150 and should fit under the current rules..

 

bottom option is 180 plus two masters and per tech (last year anyways) there would potentially be a value add for the second master.. 

 

in real life they are both very similar cost wise..  dual master with prop valve..  vs two single masters with balance bar..   both quite a bit cheaper than the full on pedal set..  but arguably less safe home engineering brake pedal linkages vs a store bought pedal.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Xph

[Ron_e]

If anyone is in doubt of what will happen if you were to lose just the front or just the rear and is wondering if they will still have a functioning brake system at the other end - then just perform this simple test.  

 

Bleed your brakes as you normally would.  When your teammate opens one bleed screw, can you push the pedal to the floor?   That is what it is going to feel like if you were to have a single brake line failure anywhere on your car.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ron_e

[Ron_e]

20 hours ago, Ham Sammich said:

This isnt' a rules debate. 

 

I have 2 Wilwood pedal box asemblies that are not going to work for what I have going on.  I spent 6 hours mocking up various ideas, so far, I can't pull it off.  I need to have the master cylinders underfoot.  Is there anything other than the Tilton 600 series?  or is this about it?  I'm interested in this exact setup.

 

 

I do have a Wilwood dual master and balance bar in my AC Cobra and there is enough movement in the balance bar that if the front or rear circuit were to go dead or disconnect I still would not have any brakes in the other good circuit.  Maybe I don't have it adjusted properly but one master going dead will absorb all of the pedal movement.  Bob, are you spinning your wheels on this project and after a bunch of time end up with the same level of safety as your stock system?

[Bremsen]

1 hour ago, mender said:

And yet (almost) every car I've driven with floor boxes (911, bug, 2002tii, stock car) felt wrong. I didn't notice in the FF but the pedal travel was very short.

 

I have to say I can't picture a pedal arrangement that has the pedal moving toward the driver's foot during its swing.

 

Old guy.  The engineer that designed that Tilton box is going to be slightly insulted you're comparing it to a 60s bug.

 

But you know what I mean.  Your heal is typically resting on the floor so a pedal with the pivot at the base moves along the same arch.  A hanging pedal has the opposite arch, which isn't as efficient.

 

Ron,  the balance bar should be set at full pedal pressure.

 

 

 

 

[Ham Sammich]

4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

I do have a Wilwood dual master and balance bar in my AC Cobra and there is enough movement in the balance bar that if the front or rear circuit were to go dead or disconnect I still would not have any brakes in the other good circuit.  Maybe I don't have it adjusted properly but one master going dead will absorb all of the pedal movement.  Bob, are you spinning your wheels on this project and after a bunch of time end up with the same level of safety as your stock system?

 

Don't know, never done a pedal box before.  I'm losing power brakes in this trade off, so that's a deduct right there.  But we'll be able to compare both cars at the Ridge, one with the Tilton setup and one with the stock booster and master.  Lot of guess work with master cylinder sizes.  It's entirely possible we've made things worse.  We HAD very good brakes, I had no complaints until they went.  This might be a complete fail.  Hopefully we can get the car drivable by the 18-20th so we can whizz around town, get a feel for it, and order different cylinders if need be.

 

I'd be lying if I said I was less than apprehensive.

 

I ordered this exact Tilton setup tonight. I don't like the floor mount, but it is what it is.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ham Sammich

[Ron_e]

7 hours ago, Ham Sammich said:

 

Don't know, never done a pedal box before.  I'm losing power brakes in this trade off, so that's a deduct right there.  But we'll be able to compare both cars at the Ridge, one with the Tilton setup and one with the stock booster and master.  Lot of guess work with master cylinder sizes.  It's entirely possible we've made things worse.  We HAD very good brakes, I had no complaints until they went.  This might be a complete fail.  Hopefully we can get the car drivable by the 18-20th so we can whizz around town, get a feel for it, and order different cylinders if need be.

 

Check it when you get it.  Hold master #1 so it doesn't move, stroke the pedal so it is only moving master #2.  Measure how far the pedal moves before it starts to move master #1.  See how much pedal movement is left to move master #1 until you are at the floor.  

[Bremsen]

Lots of resources for sizing cylinders on the web, shouldn't be much guesswork....just a lot of math.  Ideally, for a road course car, you'll have the same cylinders bores front/rear but you don't want to go more than one step between the two.

 

Like Ron said though, twin masters isn't going to solve the "no brake" issue you describe.  Any failure in the hydraulics will still cause the pedal to go to the floor (see Brad Keselowski @ Road Atlanta).

[Xph]

Not sure about the car balance bar solutions, but on my kart, I definitely can still use the brakes with one master out...  now the kart balance bar is very simple and has plenty of range of motion to activate the masters; I could see where the two master bracket might have less...

[skierman64]

Bob, didn't you buy a e36 a few months back.  Extract the brakes out of that car and put them into your Honda pedal box and all.  Problem solved. 

 

And why the heck are you running drum brakes?  You know better than that. 

 

Oh run higher temp brake fluid too. 

[Ham Sammich]

1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

Bob, didn't you buy a e36 a few months back.  Extract the brakes out of that car and put them into your Honda pedal box and all.  Problem solved. 

 

And why the heck are you running drum brakes?  You know better than that. 

 

Oh run higher temp brake fluid too. 

 

 

That drum setup was a hold over from our first build.  We felt (at that time) that the bias on the car was beautiful with the drum backs,  It doesn't take much brake on the back of a car you can almost lift off the ground with 2 guys. We had very little force on the pads (usually only losing a few thousands of pad per race weekend) and actually toyed with removing them entirely..  And they're 20 pounds lighter than the disc setup.

 

As we've matured and learned and gained confidence the cars have become more and more aggressive and funner to drive.  A lot of the things we had setup on the cars to make them easier to drive have slowly been removed or changed over time.  Also, our slowest driver.... We kinda quit inviting him along for his own safety.  We were watching some go-pro of him in a spin.  It was like the car was 90 degrees to the line before he thought to countersteeer, look around, anything.  He was always 10-12 seconds slower at most places (easy on gas though.)  It wasn't his bag.  Doesn't mean he didn't like it or have fun.  You just have to know when maybe it's best to leave him home.  Sucks too, we lost that help in the garage too. I think we could have won that last Portland race we were at with the drum brake car.  We were only 8 minutes back and utterly boned a red flag situation where all the cars came in.... and I (our only other driver) was in the bathroom reading the newspaper with what was discovered to be a dead radio....'DOH.  makes for a great story though.

 

I believe we've been running Motul 600 fluid for a while now.

 

I called Tilton on the "you still lose brakes question".

their tech guy said it all depends on your setup, pedal throw etc, as to the question of do you lose all brakes if you lose one master.  It depends on the angle of the balance bar, as it takes the path of least resistance.  But it can only angle so far before it bottoms out and pushes on the other master.  The tech guy said, either way, if you stomp the pedal, blow a master, what's left of that other cylinder isn't likely to keep you off the wall.  BUT, it's better than nothing and just kinda depends.  In our case, we had no brakes.  some would have been better than none.   This may not help that, or it might.  Depends on peddle throw, and absolute angle of the balance bar.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ham Sammich

[skierman64]

7 minutes ago, Ham Sammich said:

 

  some would have been better than none.  

 

 

Hand brake?

[Ham Sammich]

2 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

Hand brake?

 

It's still in there, and could have helped.  My gut says it's one of those situations that happens so fast, that from the time you process what happened to the time you need to think of a solution it's already too late.  Like having the foresight to throw the laundry on a drag car that's about to hit the wall.  It's tough to bring yourself to pull your hand off the wheel to pull the lever while you're still steering and hoping for luck.

 

I think it goes like this.  Hit the brake, it goes to the floor.  You have enough to think to yourself to stomp it once or twice and it's already to late and off you go.

[Ron_e]

I had a look on the Tilton site, I think their $600 balance bar *might* give you some action on one master with the other one dead but I think you will hit the firewall with the pedal before the $65 balance bar will give you any action on the good master cylinder.  

Edited April 4, 2017 by Ron_e

[Ham Sammich]

Just now, Ron_e said:

I had a look on the Tilton site, I thin their $600 balance bar might give you some action on one master with the other one dead but I think you will hit the firewall with the pedal before the $65 balance bar will give you any action on the good master cylinder.  

 

 

Could be.  Sounds like it just depends on your setup.  how much throw, how much bias.