Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 I Read the rules about fuel vent lines if using a cell. I am not sure I understand what they are really getting at. Does anyone have any pictures of how they installed theirs or advice on what to do? It sounds like it has to have a hard pipe 4" inside the car and 4" outside the car? That's a lot sticking out. Thanks for the help! This forum has been a great resource so far. Looking forward to Autobahn this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 You are confusing the rules, the rule you are referring to is an overflow vent that MAY be installed. IF you do install one then those rules must be followed. If you are only installing a cell and only a vent then just follow those rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 I guess my confusion was that a vent was also an overflow vent. Makes it easier I guess! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Next questions. Rule 9.10.3.5 Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flex-conduit is acceptable. Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.) OE metal lines in good condition, in their original location, are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended. Steel braided lines are acceptable. Does this include the 3 inch filler tube? I have seen some pictures and video's where the filler tube was clear plastic. Do we need to encase this tube in metal sheething? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted May 31, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Clueless Racing said: Next questions. Rule 9.10.3.5 Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. (Flex-conduit is acceptable. Lines wrapped in aluminum tape are not acceptable.) OE metal lines in good condition, in their original location, are exempt from this rule, but encasement is still recommended. Steel braided lines are acceptable. Does this include the 3 inch filler tube? I have seen some pictures and video's where the filler tube was clear plastic. Do we need to encase this tube in metal sheething? Yes it does. I use SS braided sheath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 Do you have any pictures of how your cell ins vented? I am still not sure I am understanding the requirements for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) Where on earth have you found that sheething in 3 inch? I presume your filler neck is the maximum legal size. I can't find that anywhere. Or..... do you have 3 feet of that you want to sell on Friday afternoon. Edited May 31, 2017 by Clueless Racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 I don't believe that it includes the filler tube as that does not normally contain any fuel. Some teams have built an enclosure around the filler tube, most have not as far as I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 8 minutes ago, Ron_e said: I don't believe that it includes the filler tube as that does not normally contain any fuel. Some teams have built an enclosure around the filler tube, most have not as far as I know. That's what I thought. I have seen pictures and video of cars with clear plastic tubing. I just want to get all my ducks in a row before tech. It's a new build and I am sure they will find some work for us to do. Trying to keep the list as short as possible for Friday night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted May 31, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 57 minutes ago, Clueless Racing said: Do you have any pictures of how your cell ins vented? I am still not sure I am understanding the requirements for this. All the pictures I have are of cars that I don't own, and I don't post pictures of other peoples cars. 41 minutes ago, Clueless Racing said: Where on earth have you found that sheething in 3 inch? I presume your filler neck is the maximum legal size. I can't find that anywhere. Or..... do you have 3 feet of that you want to sell on Friday afternoon. I think I gave the last I had to Steve Kohli. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted May 31, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 You can probably use dryer vent aluminum hose: We had to add this to one of our cars in 2013 when it didn't pass tech, your Dad was racing with us at the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Clueless Racing said: Do you have any pictures of how your cell ins vented? I am still not sure I am understanding the requirements for this. all tanks have a vent, you HAVE to have it, either the gas cap is vented or the tank or both. "race" cells usually have to "ports" on top of the tank. One is for the vent one is for the return line. Since I don't have a pix of my last car, I'll sketch it for you... note use a small "breather" element on the bottom as it does suck air and you don't want dirt in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, red0 said: You can probably use dryer vent aluminum hose: We had to add this to one of our cars in 2013 when it didn't pass tech, your Dad was racing with us at the time. A few things have changed since 2013... I've been with ChumpCar since 2011 and have only seen dryer vent hose used for brake ducting by a few teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, TiredBirds said: all tanks have a vent, you HAVE to have it, either the gas cap is vented or the tank or both. "race" cells usually have to "ports" on top of the tank. One is for the vent one is for the return line. Since I don't have a pix of my last car, I'll sketch it for you... note use a small "breather" element on the bottom as it does suck air and you don't want dirt in there. We have a breather filter as well but ran the vent up high, we do have a roll-over check in the vent line at the fill plate. Running it all low as per the sketch may cause fuel to dump in a long right hander and an ensuing black flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted May 31, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 52 minutes ago, Ron_e said: A few things have changed since 2013... I've been with ChumpCar since 2011 and have only seen dryer vent hose used for brake ducting by a few teams. Rule 9.10.3.5 Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. It is acceptable per the rule, as it is aluminum tube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Racing Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 I think we are just going to swap ours for aluminum tube, problem solved. Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimsun Racing Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, Clueless Racing said: I think we are just going to swap ours for aluminum tube, problem solved. Thanks for all the thoughtful replies guys! Only one problem with not running clear hose for the filler neck. You can't see when you are full and you end up filling the filler neck. Then if your vent hose doesn't run practically up as high as the roof you are going to get spillage, and you're going to get more spillage out the filler opening. Also if you run the citrus series they want to see braided reinforced clear hose for the filler neck but they will give you a one race waiver. You should also have rollover valves for both the filler neck and the breather hose. If you have a 2.5" filler neck you need at least a -12AN breather. The best vent hose routing direction gets very specific, refer to ATL docs. Edited June 1, 2017 by Dimsun Racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiredBirds Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 16 hours ago, Ron_e said: We have a breather filter as well but ran the vent up high, we do have a roll-over check in the vent line at the fill plate. Running it all low as per the sketch may cause fuel to dump in a long right hander and an ensuing black flag. right, this was on a drag car. you can run the vent anyplace you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, red0 said: Rule 9.10.3.5 Any fuel, oil, or coolant lines that pass through the driving compartment must be encased by steel conduit or aluminum tube. It is acceptable per the rule, as it is aluminum tube. What is the intent of the rule? That's never been clear to me, and the two proposed solutions aren't consistent. If it's for puncture resistance, the aluminum tubing won't hold back even a sharp pencil, while the filler hose most certainly does so nothing gained there. If it's for sealing off possible leaks, the SS sheath is an open weave, so no gain there either. If it's for flame resistance, the fuel filler hose itself is already capable of withstanding direct flame for longer than a driver would be likely to survive. I agree that any pressurized fuel, oil or coolant lines need to be either AN ss braided line or encased. Edited June 1, 2017 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Dimsun Racing said: Only one problem with not running clear hose for the filler neck. You can't see when you are full and you end up filling the filler neck. Then if your vent hose doesn't run practically up as high as the roof you are going to get spillage, and you're going to get more spillage out the filler opening. Also if you run the citrus series they want to see braided reinforced clear hose for the filler neck but they will give you a one race waiver. You should also have rollover valves for both the filler neck and the breather hose. If you have a 3" filler neck you need at least a -12AN breather. The best vent hose routing direction gets very specific, refer to ATL docs. My vent is lower than the top of the filler neck, so it vents excess fuel before there is any overflow at the filler. I have a NASCAR style overflow valved vent located inside the car body. The line to the outside is flexible vent line, not metal so that it can survive impact without damage or the possibility of generating sparks or hot spots. The exit for the vent is right beside where the fuel guy is standing and the catch tray/can is right below it. So far we've spilled about one cup of fuel in five race weekends with this system and the recess around the filler cap caught all of it, requiring only a rag to wipe up and no spillage onto the ground. Some teams appear to get more spillage than that on every jug. I think Chump needs to revisit the fuel cell rules and figure out exactly what they're trying to accomplish. Edited June 1, 2017 by mender 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted June 1, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 8 minutes ago, mender said: What is the intent of the rule? That's never been clear to me, and the two proposed solutions aren't consistent. If it's for puncture resistance, the aluminum tubing won't hold back even a sharp pencil, while the filler hose most certainly does so nothing gained there. If it's for sealing off possible leaks, the SS sheath is an open weave, so no gain there either. If it's for flame resistance, the fuel filler hose itself is already capable of withstanding direct flame for longer than a driver would be likely to survive. I don't disagree with you on any of those points. It has also been unclear to me. I know that both methods pass chump tech, and the braided stainless passed some other sanctioning bodies as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, red0 said: I don't disagree with you on any of those points. It has also been unclear to me. I know that both methods pass chump tech, and the braided stainless passed some other sanctioning bodies as well. My open clear fuel filler hose has also passed Chump tech for the last three years based on the installation. Obviously more consistency is needed. When I was doing my mid-engine, passenger side fuel cell installation I coordinated with my regional tech and cited pictures of John's hatchback installation showing clear hose in the rear of his passenger's compartment. He had posted the pictures to illustrate a Chump-legal installation on an appropriate thread. My contention was that moving the fuel cell from three feet behind the driver to three feet to the right of the driver didn't constitute the need for a separate set of regs. Edited June 1, 2017 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRVOLKS Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 I think Mike or Phil should step in here I saw here in other post the Clear filler from Jaz that comes with the fuel cell is good to go Clear fuel approved filler hose available in 2-1/4" or 2-1/2" inside diameter Sold in three foot lengths, replacement item for fender filler kit Bob Mann www.DRVOLKS.com bobtec@comcast.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 I think the key thing here is "in the drivers compartment". I would not want that Clear filler hose in the car with me. If it is in the trunk or there is some barrier between us, I would feel MUCH safer. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted June 1, 2017 Report Share Posted June 1, 2017 1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said: I think the key thing here is "in the drivers compartment". I would not want that Clear filler hose in the car with me. If it is in the trunk or there is some barrier between us, I would feel MUCH safer. And I think that might be the key to Chump's odd rule: some people just don't want to see the hose regardless of how safe it might be. I'd much rather be able to visually inspect it every time I get into the car than wondering if it's still okay. Get a piece of that hose and subject it to some tests like I did; you might change your mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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