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Coming from Lemons: Need help with points evaluation


NewbernD
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Hey guys.  I have been monkeying around with Lemons for the last 10 years or so and think it's about time to see how the other guys are doing it.  I could use some help understanding the point system and how they may apply to our car.

 

 

'85 BMW 325e with a m50b25tu swap.

Am i correct that because of the swap, the 325e becomes a 325i.. so points wise, the chassis becomes +450 and the swap adds another +52?

Or because I started with a 325e (375 points) and added the M50, that comes to 425 points?

 

Engine mounts

Necessary due to the swap, but allowance is made in the swap, so +0 points.

 

Transmission mounts

Due to the engine being clocked 15 degrees, this is also necessary for the swap.  Do I really need to take +10 points for this?

 

Suspension busing

Replaced suspension bushings (lolipops) with a spherical bushing.  +0

 

ECU chip

+0

 

Shocks

OEM bilsteins, +0

 

Springs

Modified e36 springs (same diameter/dimensions), +0

 

Rear Away Bar

Homemade sway bar, +20

Bar uses heim joints to attach to suspension.  Are they considered part of the sway bar, or do I need to add +10 for a pair of heim links?

 

Diff

OEM LSD from a 325i.  Since we have promoted the 325e to a 325i, I am assuming this is +0.

 

Shock towers

They have been raised a few inches to lower the car while retaining full travel.  They aren't camber plates or a strut tower brace or anything.  Any points here?

 

 

It's sounding like I should return to an OEM sway bar and live with the two points (assuming the tranny mounts are covered under the engine swap.)  How much of the field starts off with a lap or two?

 

Many thanks for your help!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Note that I am not a BMW dude...

 

Not sure on the e/i/engine alphabet soup.  If you gain hp you will have to enter it into the hp/points calculator.  

 

Mounts are all all included in the swap if needed to make it happen, keep track of your costs.  

 

Replacing suspension bushings with spree I also are points added.  On the flip side I believe the sphericals on the sway are included within the sway bar points.  If the sway was home made you could just claim materials.  Did you really do home made spring steel?

 

Adding material to the shock towers claim points for the material.  

 

Chip, shocks, springs are fine at 0.  Diff is fine at zero if OE to the model you are claiming.  Note that there is a difference between OE and OEM.  

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Unofficial response: When you swap an E30, you have to take the full value of the 325is (this is official).  Then add the value of the heim joints and trans mounts.  If you created your own sway bar, you should be able to claim material cost.  Same for the shock towers.

 

For you that's 450+52(engine)+10(trans mounts)+10(heim joints)+material cost for sway home made sway bar+material cost for raised shock towers.  I'm guessing you'd be at about 540 points give or take a bit.  

 

There are a few front running teams that start off with points and your car will be pretty fast with the swap, but I'd do everything possible to minimize the points to stay competitive.

 

EDIT: If you are running a 4.10 diff, you'll need to claim it...I think...We were officially told that we had to claim it, but it's a little fuzzy.

Edited by zack_280
clarification
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2 hours ago, NewbernD said:

Hey guys.  I have been monkeying around with Lemons for the last 10 years or so and think it's about time to see how the other guys are doing it.  I could use some help understanding the point system and how they may apply to our car.

 

 

'85 BMW 325e with a m50b25tu swap.

Am i correct that because of the swap, the 325e becomes a 325i.. so points wise, the chassis becomes +450 and the swap adds another +52?

Or because I started with a 325e (375 points) and added the M50, that comes to 425 points?

450 + engine swap points (found by adding the HP numbers and using that swap calculator on the website).. should be around 505 or 510??

Engine mounts

Necessary due to the swap, but allowance is made in the swap, so +0 points.

Correct

Transmission mounts

Due to the engine being clocked 15 degrees, this is also necessary for the swap.  Do I really need to take +10 points for this?

These may be included in the engine swap stuff...

Suspension busing

Replaced suspension bushings (lolipops) with a spherical bushing.  +0

I think this would be + 10 points (non OE suspension component). It definitely isn't 0.

ECU chip

+0

Correct

Shocks

OEM bilsteins, +0

Correct

Springs

Modified e36 springs (same diameter/dimensions), +0

Correct

Rear Away Bar

Homemade sway bar, +20

Bar uses heim joints to attach to suspension.  Are they considered part of the sway bar, or do I need to add +10 for a pair of heim links?

As far as I know, however you mount the non-OE sway bar is included in it being a non-OE sway bar  (20 pts)

Diff

OEM LSD from a 325i.  Since we have promoted the 325e to a 325i, I am assuming this is +0.

Correct

Shock towers

They have been raised a few inches to lower the car while retaining full travel.  They aren't camber plates or a strut tower brace or anything.  Any points here?

I assume you welded in some steel here to raise the tower. Measure the sq. ft. of material added and add points at 2pts / sq. ft.

 

Added my comments in red. The general gist of the point adders is:

- If it makes the car more capable of winning an endurance race

AND

- if it wasn't originally part of the car

AND 

- if it isn't mentioned as one of the 0 point or point exempt performance items

 

then it is some amount of points.

 

 

Welcome to Chumpcar. Most cars start at or below 500 points so you will start out at a disadvantage, but the key is reliability and consistency. We made up 4 laps to win last Sunday in a field of 25ish mainly through running without issue and other cars breaking, so it's definitely possible to make up laps (depending on the race and many other factors).

Edited by enginerd
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Thanks for your input folks.  I'll talk it over with the crew and we will try to figure out a way to not be quite so disadvantaged.  Some comments:

 

Diff - we are running a 4.10.  But if our car is mandated to be a 325is because of the swap, the IS came with a 4.10 lsd.  I want to believe there isn't double jeopardy.

 

Shock Towers:  We cut off the shock towers of another e30 and welded them on top.  Guess I was sort of hoping this might fall into 4.7.6 (replace any defective part with OEM for 0 points.)  We just replaced it a little too high.  Otherwise, the material cost it took to accomplish that shouldn't add up to more than 2 points of steel. 

 

Sway bar:  Not sure what material cost might be on roundbar.  Again, thinking here that return to stock might be in order.

 

I get differing opinions on tranny mounts.  "included with the swap" vs "seperate".  I guess the only way is to show up and beg.  This is where (in the old days of lemons) a bottle of something yummy would buy a little leniency?  We are usually our team's own worst enemy anyway and will find some non-performance related reason to break. 

 

TiredBird, I'll fix the location.  I'm in Woodbine, just a half an hour up the road from you.  One of my drivers lives in Brookeville.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, NewbernD said:

 

 

TiredBird, I'll fix the location.  I'm in Woodbine, just a half an hour up the road from you.  One of my drivers lives in Brookeville.

 

 

 

Cool, there are a few people around that have raced both leagues here. Are you trying to do VIR in Aug?

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Man relax , just bring a safe car ,claim the stuff you want to run take your points run the combo you know ,and have fun with no work or worries .  Now if you are a 6 time lemons winning team and looking to a woop up on some chumps get to work bud ..   and definitely WELCOME

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6 hours ago, NewbernD said:

Thanks for your input folks.  I'll talk it over with the crew and we will try to figure out a way to not be quite so disadvantaged.  Some comments:

 

Diff - we are running a 4.10.  But if our car is mandated to be a 325is because of the swap, the IS came with a 4.10 lsd.  I want to believe there isn't double jeopardy.

 

Shock Towers:  We cut off the shock towers of another e30 and welded them on top.  Guess I was sort of hoping this might fall into 4.7.6 (replace any defective part with OEM for 0 points.)  We just replaced it a little too high.  Otherwise, the material cost it took to accomplish that shouldn't add up to more than 2 points of steel. 

 

Sway bar:  Not sure what material cost might be on roundbar.  Again, thinking here that return to stock might be in order.

 

I get differing opinions on tranny mounts.  "included with the swap" vs "seperate".  I guess the only way is to show up and beg.  This is where (in the old days of lemons) a bottle of something yummy would buy a little leniency?  We are usually our team's own worst enemy anyway and will find some non-performance related reason to break. 

 

TiredBird, I'll fix the location.  I'm in Woodbine, just a half an hour up the road from you.  One of my drivers lives in Brookeville.

 

 

 

We take 3 points for material added to our shock towers fyi, as silly as it seems its just the way it is.

 

I believe that the e30 just takes the 450pt value when you swap it, but it does not allow you to make the changes to the trans, diff, fuel tank size, etc...?  Could be wrong, but I believe some other e30 teams mentioned this in other threads.

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I've never calculated a swap and presented to tech, but I have looked at the swap rules extensively.

 

IMHO You are starting with an e30 chassis and transplanting a M50B25tu motor from an e34 or e36.  A platform swap is within a generation, like starting with an e36 328 and platform swapping to a e36 325, in that case lower power, lower point value and a LSD.  A platform swap specifically requires you take the entire drivetrain and suspension.  A platform swap does not seem to apply in your case.

 

In your case you are doing an engine swap, so you start with the value of your current platform, sounds like a e30 M20B27 at 121hp, you plug in that info and the hp of the new motor into the swap calculator and I get +55 points.  Add that to your starting VPI, then add your other mods.

 

Ryan

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or... if coming from Lemons, put away the calculator, how to interpret things by rules that are muddy, points systems and not claiming the cheaty stuff.

What if you could, instead, qualify for your class assignment on Friday and race within your class Saturday & Sunday.

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8 hours ago, NewbernD said:

Thanks for your input folks.  I'll talk it over with the crew and we will try to figure out a way to not be quite so disadvantaged.  Some comments:

 

Diff - we are running a 4.10.  But if our car is mandated to be a 325is because of the swap, the IS came with a 4.10 lsd.  I want to believe there isn't double jeopardy.  The auto came with a 4.10 and the manual came with a 3.73.  The 4.10 is a diff swap to the IS since I'm guessing you're running a manual car.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Double e said:

or... if coming from Lemons, put away the calculator, how to interpret things by rules that are muddy, points systems and not claiming the cheaty stuff.

What if you could, instead, qualify for your class assignment on Friday and race within your class Saturday & Sunday.

What you did there....

 

We all see it.

 

WRL, LDRL, Lemons, AER, Chumpcar... Etc... They all have positives and negatives to the rules.

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2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

We take 3 points for material added to our shock towers fyi, as silly as it seems its just the way it is.

 

 

  Move your upper suspension anywhere for 3 points .. sounds like a deal to me ..

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6 minutes ago, okkustom said:

  Move your upper suspension anywhere for 3 points .. sounds like a deal to me ..

Well, on a strut front end it is not that big of a deal to do so.

 

We moved our lower arm (on a strut front end) for 2.50 points.....

 

Its awesome what improvements you can make with an angle grinder and a welder!  :ph34r:

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40 minutes ago, Double e said:

or... if coming from Lemons, put away the calculator, how to interpret things by rules that are muddy, points systems and not claiming the cheaty stuff.

What if you could, instead, qualify for your class assignment on Friday and race within your class Saturday & Sunday.

Sounds like a great series... classing performance based off a team's single fastest driver and lap times they ran on a test day. This method of classing solves all the common issues such as sandbagging, speed differential between drivers, learning a new track and improving through the weekend... it even recognizes the fact that FTD is all that matters in endurance racing, something that ChumpCar doesn't seem to understand!

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38 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

All we did was modify the shock hats by cutting them and welding in 3" of pipe.  Cost of materials.

All we did was give the shock it's travel back. Keeps from bottoming out the shock and destroying it and breaking hubs and crashing in a giant ball of flames.  It really should be free in the name of low cost and safety. :).   

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Sounds like a great series... classing performance based off a team's single fastest driver and lap times they ran on a test day. This method of classing solves all the common issues such as sandbagging, speed differential between drivers, learning a new track and improving through the weekend... it even recognizes the fact that FTD is all that matters in endurance racing, something that ChumpCar doesn't seem to understand!

Whoa. I almost fell down the stairs tripping over the sarcasm.   Nicely done. 

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On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:20 PM, NewbernD said:

Suspension busing

Replaced suspension bushings (lolipops) with a spherical bushing.  +0

 

"suspension bushings in polyurethane, Delrin, OE-replacement: 0 pts/car"

 

A spherical would be points added.

 

*edit* NOT free:

557828db2aa26bac739c90fd400b49f4_1024x.j

 

+10

BWSport-TrackCAB-Solid-Control-Arm-Mount

 

Heim joint, +5 each

fcb3036lg_2.jpg

 

Edited by ross2004
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11 minutes ago, ross2004 said:

"suspension bushings in polyurethane, Delrin, OE-replacement: 0 pts/car"

 

A spherical would be points added.

 

Free:

557828db2aa26bac739c90fd400b49f4_1024x.j

 

Maybe free? The arm is still riding on a delrin sleeve, but clearly a non-stock design.

BWSport-TrackCAB-Solid-Control-Arm-Mount

 

Heim joint, +5 each

fcb3036lg_2.jpg

 

 

None of the above are free on E30.  Only free LCA bushing on E30 is a stock lollipop with a bushing having a centered hole.  The bushing in your top pic is 10 points, Huggy got burned trying to claim it as free at Road Atlanta earlier this year.

 

Edit - Free:

Related image

 

+10 points:

Image result for e30 lower control arm bushings

Edited by Hi_Im_Will
pretty pictures
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4 minutes ago, Hi_Im_Will said:

 

None of the above are free on E30.  Only free LCA bushing on E30 is a stock lollipop with a bushing having a centered hole.  The bushing in your top pic is 10 points, Huggy got burned trying to claim it as free at Road Atlanta earlier this year.

That's pretty harsh....

 

Good to know though. Sorry for putting out false information, I didn't realize you couldn't have a geometry change via a different bushing in the stock housing.

Edited by ross2004
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3 minutes ago, Hi_Im_Will said:

 

None of the above are free on E30.  Only free LCA bushing on E30 is a stock lollipop with a bushing having a centered hole.  The bushing in your top pic is 10 points, Huggy got burned trying to claim it as free at Road Atlanta earlier this year.

 

Team PBR lite got DQ'd for not claiming offset delrin lollipops too. THEY ARE NOT FREE. 

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please remove Upper from my earlier post .   sometimes I think so small ..                               that Huggy  ,, what will he try next, probably put a chip in the car or something

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