Jump to content

oil recommendations, race or street


Recommended Posts

Just doing alittle reading on oil.... What oil are you guys using?

Brand,weight, and full or blend synthetic or just straight up oil

 

how many of you are using oil temp and pressure gages

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have had excellent success with the Redline oil products in the race car (our finishing rate shows you how good this oil has been in the BMW, into the 4th season on this engine). They are a former series sponsor. No idea if we would have had the same performance with a cheaper oil, we have only ever run this so no comparisons. 

Edited by enginerd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, 09Gt said:

Just doing alittle reading on oil.... What oil are you guys using?

Brand,weight, and full or blend synthetic or just straight up oil

 

how many of you are using oil temp and pressure gages

 

 

T6 5W40 Rotella, cheap and good. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

T6 5W40 Rotella, cheap and good. 

 You are onto something. Rotella is frequently used to break in high dollar race engines for a reason. Several of the metals that are no longer found in some of the more expensive oils are still in the Rotella formulation.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Using Rotella straight 30w.  We started with Rotella 15w40 but later decided the 30w could handle the abuse.  Using an external oil cooler in the Saturn for good measure.  Also changing oil and filter after every race weekend.  Usually cut open the filter to see if the engine is giving up any metal

Edited by mostmint
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 09Gt said:

Never heard of Rotella , I am new to the endurance racing, I will check them out... the info is very much appreciated

 

It is a Shell product, so you'll be looking for "Shell Rotella", should be able to find it at Walmart

 

Used Rotella for initial break- in as others mentioned. Allegedly it has higher zinc content, but I do not know if they've been scaling that back in recent years. We’ve been using higher end synthetics but I am inclined to start monitoring oil temps and if they are being held in line I might switch to Rotella as well. I don't mind spending $$$ on oil every race, but if I don't need to, it would be a nice consumables cost saving...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mobil 1   15w-50.  It's cheap on sale at Walmart and gets fairly good reviews for engine protection.

 

1985 Supra with a 30 year old inline 6 cylinder. Oil and filter are changed after every race. I was a Rotella guy until I started using Mobil 1, and for the past 5 races my oil consumption has dropped. Correlation not causation, but I attribute some of the consumption change to the oil.

 

I run an oil pressure gauge but not oil temp (I've read it's about 20-40 degrees warmer than coolant temp). If you have both you may save an engine one day since both pressure and temp changes can be cause by different problems - the sooner you know there's a problem the better chance of saving an engine. BIG idiot lights to warn you of either problem would not hurt.

 

I imagine this will turn into a typical "what's the best _____?" thread. Every engine will be different, especially with the range of age/style we have in endurance racing. Some designs need better quality oil, some can run cheap stuff all day without issue.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my semi-scientific method:

 

Adjust your oil weight based on your pressures.  Pressure is roughly proportional to viscosity, and viscosity drops as  temperature increases.  Higher temp => heavier weight oil required.  This chart should help demonstrate my point:

 

Image result for oil viscosity vs temperature

 

What actual viscosity you need (in centistokes, not weight, see graph above) is engine dependent, but you can get an indication by watching your oil pressures.  At operating temperature, roughly 10psi/1krpm is standard.  So at 5000rpm, look for 50psi AFTER the filter.  Your actual engine may operate a bit above or below this, but if you're running 30psi at redline, you need a heavier oil.  If you're running against your 60psi regulator from 3000rpm all the way to the limiiter, you probably want less viscosity.  And the requirement is for a HOT engine- as hot as it gets during the race.  You're not trying to get a good fuel economy number for the window sticker, so your pressures on a cold morning at startup are irrelevant. 

 

Once you've got your oil weight dialed in, you can start worrying about brand, synthetic/dino, etc.  In general, how expensive of an oil you need will depend on your operating temperatures.  Dino oils generally start breaking down above 250F.  Synthetics are usually good into the 280s long-term.  Really expensive stuff may be able to run in the 300s for the duration of an endurance race, but I haven't gone that hot.  Blends are somewhere in-between, try it and see how long it lasts.  In my experience, there's little difference between brands as long as it's recognizable, and you pick the right weight and style.  

 

Here's an example:  I know our car runs around 260F on a 70 degree day.  At 260F, running a 50wt, I get 55psi from 4000rpm to redline.  That's probably appropriate, could probably get away with a 40 wt though.  On hot days we can get excursions into the 280s, and with 50wt oil we'll see 45 psi at 5000 rpm, and 55 psi at 7k.  That tells me that a 50wt is probably correct - it leaves some margin on most days and is just barely thick enough when the engine gets really hot.

 

For those 70 degree days, the engine is running a bit too hot for dino oil, so we run a blend, usually Castrol GTX.  It's cheap, readily available, and will go 25 hours at 260F before it turns dark.  On those hot days, with lots of jumps to 280, that GTX turns black too quickly, so we run a full synthetic if we expect to do most of the racing above 80F ambient (usually Mobil 1).  With the new aero, we've been seeing even higher temps, and oil pressures with our standard xxW50 wt oils have been getting uncomfortably low on the hottest days.  So that will add a heavy, expensive, full synthetic to the list, like RedLine 60wt, for the mid-summer races with the full aero package.  However, at a spring test day where the engine never gets up to temp (~240 deg oil), that 60wt would be too thick to effectively lubricate the whole engine, and a waste of money because the high heat capability is unnecessary.  A 40wt dino oil would be most appropriate for my car on that day.

 

So, in summary - match your oil weight to your desired oil pressure, and your oil type to the temperatures you will see.  Beyond that buy well-known reputable brands, and avoid gimmicks.  Happy racing!

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

in the race car we are using Petra full syntho 10-40. In my daily cars I use what ever is on sale. we have a pressure gauge, no temp gauge yet. Up until last race we ran a cooler. Didn't run one this last outing (LeMons NJ race) but it was only 70ish.

Edited by TiredBirds
added info
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, revvhappy said:

 I was a Rotella guy until I started using Mobil 1, and for the past 5 races my oil consumption has dropped. Correlation not causation, but I attribute some of the consumption change to the oil.
 

same here in the old civic motor...1/2 liter (canadian eh)...per stop with dino (rotella)...down to 1/2 liter every 2nd stop with synthetic (usually Lucas 15w40 diesel)...not a dollar saving issue but forget to add at 1 pit stop and it could be trouble (no accusump)....we have gone through 2 motors (on our 3rd) since 2013 (just over 20,000 race miles in that time) but we are hard on equipment and don't run 'built' stuff.

 

 

Edited by curtwill
adds
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We run Mobil 1 5w30 in our Honda D16 with a Fram HP1 filter and small oil cooler.  Mechanical oil pressure gauge with the stock low oil pressure switch. This engine was pulled from a junkyard ~1999 and ran 230 club races, won a NASA Honda Challenge championship and then came out of retirement for 7 years of crapcan enduros without ever being opened.  

 

We took the valve cover off for the first time at NCM last year when the HG blew and it looks like a brand new engine inside...zero varnish.  

 

Sadly, it is retired for good after the CMP race last fall because the HG "blew" again, which means something is warped.  Add to that fact that the thermostat hosing boss cracked out of the block and the waterpump o-ring land is corroded and it's time to be retired.  It still ran good through the whole weekend, we just topped the water off at each stop.  Including 4 hours straight of almost no water on Saturday because radios were down and guest drivers didn't remember how I said that midrange on the stock coolant gauge is HOT in an Honda.  RIP D16.  

 

Needless to say, the oil temps were nuclear....oil still looks and smells good.  Not that color and odor are scientific indicators of condition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rotella no longer has the higher levels of ZDDP it used to which isn't a big deal unless you have an older engine with a flat tappet cam. I run BradPenn 20/50 with excellent results. It is a semi synthetic and used the original Kendall GT1 formulation. Also available in 10/30 as well as a special break in oil in 30wt.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I run 15-50 Mobile One in my high revving street Elise, always, and we've also run it in our old Miata and never once replaced the motor, changing after every race.  It ran 13K race miles on top of 137K street miles, motor was still strong.  So I'm thinking about using it again in the ecotec I'm swapping into a '93 Miata.  hmmmm

Edited by Jer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/19/2017 at 9:05 AM, revvhappy said:

Mobil 1   15w-50.  It's cheap on sale at Walmart and gets fairly good reviews for engine protection.

 

1985 Supra with a 30 year old inline 6 cylinder. Oil and filter are changed after every race. I was a Rotella guy until I started using Mobil 1, and for the past 5 races my oil consumption has dropped. Correlation not causation, but I attribute some of the consumption change to the oil.

 

I run an oil pressure gauge but not oil temp (I've read it's about 20-40 degrees warmer than coolant temp). If you have both you may save an engine one day since both pressure and temp changes can be cause by different problems - the sooner you know there's a problem the better chance of saving an engine. BIG idiot lights to warn you of either problem would not hurt.

 

I imagine this will turn into a typical "what's the best _____?" thread. Every engine will be different, especially with the range of age/style we have in endurance racing. Some designs need better quality oil, some can run cheap stuff all day without issue.

^^ This. We ran Rotella. Not knocking it at all, but we burned oil every race. After rebuild, switched to Mobile 1 15/50 from walmart and k&n filter. Usually around $22 for the jug.  Change oil/filter every race. Oil pressures are spot on to scientific post. Usually after idle and 190 water temp, psi is around 25-30. Jumps up to 45-50 or so at full throttle and drops to 15 or so here and there based on corners, etc... Stock pan, pickup, pump. 4.5 quarts with filter.  It works for us. Its what we ran in the bmw e36 325is too and similar results. Never burnt a drop and always looked great at change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but you have no idea if it's the rebuild or the oil, right?  We have only done one race with a 200k motor in our E36, but it didn't burn any oil on Rotella.  I was told by an engineer at redline that 50 was too heavy and would heat the oil.

Edited by theblue
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Mobil 1 5w30.

The engine had 119,000 miles on it when installed.
I run the oil when it turns black (as per Mobil tech). I swap out the filter every few races.

I have 22,638.3 miles of racing on the engine. And it is still going strong. I did use Redline 40wt one race, and after that, I went back to Mobil1. I purchase it at WalMart.

 

edit: I use almost 8 quarts of oil. We overfill the pan. Plus we have a 3-quart accumulator and -an10 lines. 8-quarts puts the oil exactly where we need it on the Toyota 3MZ-FE V6.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, theblue said:

but you have no idea if it's the rebuild or the oil, right?  We have only done one race with a 200k motor in our E36, but it didn't burn any oil on Rotella.  I was told by an engineer at redline that 50 was too heavy and would heat the oil.

 

I've wondered about that - heat generation from oil being too thick VS the oil being heated just because you are under higher strain race conditions. Heck, I think this came up in a previous thread but that was a few months ago, but my mind is like a sieve.

 

It seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog - under race conditions and other abusive conditions, what amount of heat is generated from running 10 points too high on viscosity? If running oil too thick is contributing to 7° higher oil temps, but your oil temp is already 250°, I think I'd rather guess on the slightly too heavy side? Does anyone have any data to show the temperature differential between two weights all else being equal? I mean actual scientific data with controlled variables. Not 2 different oils on 2 different race weekends. 

 

How would a 0 weight oil perform @ 275° VS a 50 weight over the course of 14 hours and why? 

 

Shouldn't temperature be the main deciding factor in oil weight selection with pressure being a secondary consideration? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Technical Advisory Committee
37 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

 

Shouldn't temperature be the main deciding factor in oil weight selection with pressure being a secondary consideration? 

 

 

 

Not necessarily because pressure is indicating whether or not your oil is retaining enough viscosity to maintain the hydrodynamic wedge on all of your bearing surfaces. As long as you're not running the oil so hot that you're burning it up. Otherwise, the temperature is just an indicator that the oil is within the designed operating window to be X viscosity. But each oil weight has a range of viscosities within this designed temperature range (especially with multi-weight oils). So, for example a Rotella 15W50 and an Amsoil or Redline 15W50 will have different viscosities at 275F because their base oils behave differently with temperature change, so their weight is a target viscosity range. If oil pressure is where it should be with one brand but not the other, are you going to keep running the 15W50 that gives you low oil pressure even though you're temperatures are in the range you want? (Hint: The answer is no, because if pressure is dropping, you're losing that wedge and allowing metal to touch in your bearings which is bad news.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fair point, pressure variations from cold to operating temp to extreme temp would be a good indicator and most likely directly correlated with said temp change. I guess that is where I was going with the performance of two ends of the spectrum of oil viscosity (like a 0w vs a 20w vs a 50w or whatever), pressure would certainly be impacted as well.

 

Hopefully I'll get a temp probe installed before Sebring, I don't think I have a problem but I am very curious....  will also tell me if oil cooler is a waste of 20 pts or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

T6 Rotella 5w40. Two races in on the 2JZ Toyota engine, 16 hours of racing. I haven't noticed any oil burn, but I overfill the pan . I put about 7 quarts, as I have an oil cooler also. I run an oil temp and PSI, with PSI being about 60-70 during throttle, and temps 260 out of the block. I only run Rotella as a few friends did with good results, but being that it is at almost every parts store, until I have an issue, I will continue to run it. Also, K&N oil filter. Replaced both between the first and second race, but will wait on  filter every couple races now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...