Xph Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 So I have this 50a toggle switch wired in to replace my key switch ignition, the way its wired it is both the ignition and accessory power, is that suitable for a kill switch? IE if you toggle off the switch, it will stop the fuel pump, ignition, kill the motor, ect... (only thing connected to our accessory power at the moment is our wipers)... our headlights and brake lights for instance are not interrupted with this switch (like in a street car). I was reading some old threads that talked about having a second "battery disconnect" which we have (to keep from discharging the battery during storage)... our battery disconnect however isn't touching the charging circuit, so it wouldn't kill the ignition... Can we just put the lightning bolt sticker above our main toggle switch, and will that satisfy the rules? or do we need a more conventional twist type kill switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted July 16, 2017 Report Share Posted July 16, 2017 If your brake lights don't cutoff, it isn't a kill switch. It must cut all power to the car imho.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 All power must cut off in case of fire/crash/fail saying that Some people leave a fused connection from the main alt to batt hot all the time as to run a simple big kill "all" switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted July 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) ok, so I know teams are doing what we are doing, I know it will pass the 3500 rpm off stop test... but I guess its not exactly whats in the rules or is it? 3.14. MASTER ELECTRICAL KILL (CUT-OFF) SWITCH 3.14.1. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch mounted in the center of the dash area of the car (roll cage dash bar) or center console area of the cockpit, accessible to and by the driver while he/she is secured in the driving seat by all seat belts and harnesses. The control or key for this switch should be red and the OFF position should be clearly indicated. Both the main battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch. All electrical cut-off switches shall be identified by the international lightning bolt symbol. Decals available at ChumpCar Tech Inspection. 3.14.2. The dash or console switch MAY be the sole kill switch, or it MAY be a second switch, wired in series with an existing or additional switch located elsewhere on the car. If the switch is wired in series, the interruption of either switch, independent of the other, must kill all power and vehicle operations. 3.14.3. Both terminals of the Kill Switch are to be treated as “hot” terminals and must be insulated. 3.14.4. At technical inspection, the kill switch function will be tested by revving the engine to approximately 1500 RPM and turning off the switch. The engine must shut-off immediately. So first question, is a toggle switch going to be considered "racing type" (this is a 50amp single pole singe throw And the second is the interpretation of "main battery circuit" as the switch clearly interrupts the ignition circuit.. In our factory wiring, the main battery goes to a fuse block under the hood, three main power wires go into the cabin, our switch cuts 1 of those three (the second is only used to energize the starter relay, and the third is the normal safety item circuit, lights, horn, ect) Edited July 17, 2017 by Xph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Xph said: "main battery circuit" Those words are supposed to get you thinking of interrupting a battery cable with a 200+ amp switch to prevent fire when your starter solenoid fuses into a molten blob or a crash so bad that it would be in the drivers best interest to have the whole car go cold on instant command. (rollover/fuel spill/massive short) I can bet with 100% certainty a email to Phil is going to be a waste of electrons...Why are you trying to work around the obvious? How about this? Summit Racing Part Number: FLA-FR1003 Switch Activation: Manual Switch Actuation: Rotary (turn) Voltage Compatibility: 12 Continuous Amp Rating: 250 amps Surge Amp Rating: 2,500 amps Includes Alternator Disconnect: No Includes Magneto Disconnect: No Waterproof: Yes Mounting Bracket Included: Yes Emergency Off Decal Included: No Quantity: Sold individually. In-Store Pickup: Choose In-store pick-up (OH, GA, NV) on our web site. Top racers realize that using a low-amp switch creates resistance and actually reduces power. Flaming River's top-of-the-line heavy-duty battery disconnect switches are designed for complex electrical systems. The Big Switches feature a spring-loaded, vibration-resistant, waterproof design and are furnished with an easy-grip T-handle. They are accepted by most sanctioning bodies, including IHRA/NHRA. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fla-fr1003?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-flaming-river&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy930-JiP1QIV2Y-zCh0agwkkEAQYBSABEgIdpPD_BwE Edited July 17, 2017 by Team Infiniti 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck Posted July 17, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 You come into pit I'm marshalling your team is fueling I see your brake lights flash ,or dash lights on, or anything on your going to stop fueling until I make sure nothing is on .. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted July 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Thanks for the feedback guys, just asking because this particular car was built to a different set of rules, where most of the interior had to be retained, its still road going with things like the interior heater and dash clock (and full stock dash).. it has its carpet removed and has a cage we were just wondering if the existing "switch" would work... (which I can see its only about half of what we need)... we will have to do some more research.. Our goal is simply to add the least "custom" wires to the harness to accomplish the goal and to do that in the safest manner possible for this one; it may end up that running the alternator output to the battery and then battery cable into the dash is the best option, just not my first choice since the kill switch is like 12" from the interior fuse block I would ideally prefer to switch there not adding more holes or wires through the firewall... (and well since we have to keep the stupid OE clock, I would love to not have it loose its time constantly, but it would seem that could be fixed with other options than leaving all the OE wiring in place) (this car is not yet a chump car, just trying to check how much we have to change to make it into one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead_42 Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 14 hours ago, okkustom said: You come into pit I'm marshalling your team is fueling I see your brake lights flash ,or dash lights on, or anything on your going to stop fueling until I make sure nothing is on .. Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-) My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery. Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Gearhead_42 said: Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-) My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery. Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off. I would hassle you for this as well. That is the only way it is easy for a pit lane marshal to tell if your car is off. If I see brakelights, I am going to stop you until I investigate further. I understand your point of view and agree that there is a small loophole (if you will allow me to call it a loophole). However, if I am a marshal on the pit lane, you bet your butt I am going to stop you if those brake lights are glowing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gearhead_42 said: Remind me not to run a race you're marshalling ;-) My main switch meets every letter and intent of the rule, every fuel/ignition/computer/pump/fan etc shuts off, kills the motor, and isolates the alternator from the ignition as well as the battery. Not to mention I have additional properly sized circuit breakers at key points in the system... but my brake lights are on an independent fused circuit, and remain functional even if the main switch is off. 3.14.1. All cars must have a racing-type master electrical kill switch mounted in the center of the dash area of the car (roll cage dash bar) or center console area of the cockpit, accessible to and by the driver while he/she is secured in the driving seat by all seat belts and harnesses. The control or key for this switch should be red and the OFF position should be clearly indicated. Both the main battery circuit and the ignition circuit must be interrupted by the kill switch. All electrical cut-off switches shall be identified by the international lightning bolt symbol. Decals available at ChumpCar Tech Inspection. How are you getting power to your brake lights if the main electrical supply AND the ignition supply are off. I assume your alternator is not spinning if the engine is off (which it MUST be). I realize this rule is written... interestingly. However, it does not mean that you are allowed a main power supply and then sort of a secondary one that doesn't need to be killed. 3.14.2. The dash or console switch MAY be the sole kill switch, or it MAY be a second switch, wired in series with an existing or additional switch located elsewhere on the car. If the switch is wired in series, the interruption of either switch, independent of the other, must kill all power and vehicle operations. I would say that brake lights are a vehicle operation. In other words, how does anybody know how your car is wired? Am I supposed to take your word for it that just the brake lights still have power? Do you want the marshal to get out their voltmeter and start probing around while you are waiting to fuel your car? Just kill all the juice. There is no reason to leave anything powered up. Edited July 17, 2017 by wvumtnbkr 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Chris Huggins Posted July 17, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 I have my interior lights and exterior "theme" lights wired to A battery so they stay on even with the kill switch off. That way, the driver can be found in the middle of the field outside hog pen at 3 in the morning if he goes off. Anyone see an issue? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead_42 Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Add another (stretching, hard) one: I have a data display with an internal battery, it remains powered on during pitstops because it has *a separate power supply* from the main circuit ... How does the marshall know it's not powered by the car, and the power is still on? Intent of the rule is to cut power to fuel and ignition sources *in case of a failure* that could cause sparks and set your ass on fire. Also, 3.14.1 defines the operation, 3.14.2 is for secondary switches, and does not retro to the overall function defined. So yes, OP, you need a main circuit switch to cut the operation of the engine/alternator/ignition/fuel pump. I disagree that it needs to kill every electron in the car but obviously interpretations vary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMR2 Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 My interpretation of the intent of the rule was always that if the circuit had enough power to ignite a leaking fuel tank it should be cut. My opinion: Standalone dash or tablet run on an internal 5V battery? Who cares. Brake circuit on a 15-amp fuse that could end up shorted to the frame after a wreck? Cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdave Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 With the kill switch off, how many cars still have power to the ALT? with a simple kill switch, if the alt is on the engine side, it will continue to run, if on the bat side, it is still powered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 I agree that an internally powered dash or a phone or tablet for lap timing staying on during pit stops should be fine, but I have personally seen teams questioned by pit marshals over that exact issue at races before. In my car I also have a battery powered LED dome light for night racing driver changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted July 17, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 24 minutes ago, Superdave said: With the kill switch off, how many cars still have power to the ALT? with a simple kill switch, if the alt is on the engine side, it will continue to run, if on the bat side, it is still powered. Exactly.... The way to solve the issue, cutting power to Everything, INCLUDING the alternator, is to use a 6 pole switch. Chumpcar sponsor Racer Parts Wholesale has a $30 switch that will accomplish this. It even includes the resistor to properly ground out the alternator when the switch is turned off. https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1908/Battery_Disconnects For $30 and a couple hours of work tying it into the ignition system and main battery cable, I would say this is one of the cheapest and easiest Safety Items to put on your car to keep it and YOU from burning up. But the choice is yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, mcoppola said: I would say this is one of the cheapest and easiest Safety Items to put on your car to keep it and YOU from burning up. But the choice is yours. Agreed in full. But you have to remember to kill power after a wreck or when there is fire. Our least mechanical team member didn't even know that one should turn off the main power switch in such an event. I had to explain it to him.. Edited July 18, 2017 by enginerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 50 minutes ago, enginerd said: But you have to remember to kill power after a wreck or when there is fire. Beenthere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Ray Franck Posted July 18, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 Thanks for the support , its time for tech to answer, oh Phil ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 18 hours ago, mcoppola said: Exactly.... The way to solve the issue, cutting power to Everything, INCLUDING the alternator, is to use a 6 pole switch. But there is still power to the switch, you can't ever really kill "everything". Not that I disagree with your suggestion, this is just a convenient place to make the point that your goal should be to have the minimum amount of powered wires in the car when the switch is off. If the only requirement was that the engine die when the switch was shut off we'd just use the stock ignition switch, and it's clear that isn't good enough. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 18, 2017 Report Share Posted July 18, 2017 19 hours ago, mhr650 said: In my car I also have a battery powered LED dome light for night racing driver changes. Yep...works great. Harbor Freight gives them away for free. Add a little industrial Velcro and it works great. We also take the time to show whoever the pit marshall is our setup before a stop. The MP-10000 XT Power Mobile Energy pack takes care of keeping the GoPro/MiFi/Cerevo powered up during stops as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.