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Random number starting procedure...


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  • Technical Advisory Committee

I prefer the first come first serve method that was used in the past. There are lots of new or slower teams that don't care to start in the front, so they would start towards the back. Now they would have to go out of their way to start towards the back. IMO it was safer before. 

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16 minutes ago, Huggy said:

What random number starting procedure?

A random pit # is generated at the drivers meeting. Cars roll out of their pit in that order towards pit in. When the last car that was pitted at pit in clears pit out pits they roll in behind them in that order.

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7 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 Prefer the first come first serve but random is random, we got stuck in 54th spot to start Sebring, I don't see it is any different than a random wave of the flag.

It just eliminates the land rush on pit row so it really is no different than a random flag drop.

 

Congrats on the Sebring podium.

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Gingerman started this, I believe.

 

It worked well.  Day 1 we were near the front.  Day 2 we were almost in the back. 

 

We did well day 2 and the starting order had nothing to do with it.

 

I would be fine if we use this going forward.

 

However, tracks like WGI with early and often FCY can cause this to be a HUGE deal.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
9 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Gingerman started this, I believe.

 

It worked well.  Day 1 we were near the front.  Day 2 we were almost in the back. 

 

We did well day 2 and the starting order had nothing to do with it.

 

I would be fine if we use this going forward.

 

However, tracks like WGI with early and often FCY can cause this to be a HUGE deal.

 

It worked OK at Gingerman, however most people behave themselves pretty well at Gingerman. With chump allowing novices and inexperienced drivers, I think this is a problem waiting to happen. Novice teams rarely pushed to the front of the grid but now they could be starting poll and lock the brakes up or spin with 100 cars barreling behind them. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, red0 said:

Novice teams rarely pushed to the front of the grid but now they could be starting poll and lock the brakes up or spin with 100 cars barreling behind them. 

 

It is their option. Any car that is not ready to go in a reasonable time will be skipped over and have to start at the rear. Just wave it off to the official...

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 minute ago, Doc said:

It is their option. Any car that is not ready to go in a reasonable time will be skipped over and have to start at the rear. Just wave it off to the official...

 

It may work in theory, but not in practice. 

 

A novice team is not necessarily going to forfeit their starting spot, because that could be embarrassing. They however they generally do not push to the front of the starting grid. 

 

I just hope to not get caught up in any mayhem this may cause in the future. 

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15 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

However, tracks like WGI with early and often FCY can cause this to be a HUGE deal.

 

Wouldn't this kind of work BETTER at Watkins with an early/often FCY? 

 

I visualize it as getting 5-6 laps to start getting into a running order.  Maybe a car that started at the very end will be 1/2 lap back (3/4??) but has gained 30-50 positions (out of 100, for a front running car, kind of reasonable?  And any car that is racing for a win shouldn't be lapped in that time right?) when the FCY comes out and the leader is collected.  Then they re-start that much closer to the front and that initial disadvantage is significantly reduced.  This also assumes that the top 2 fastest teams are starting at total opposite ends of the field.

 

 

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I like the random draw from the fairness perspective for the competitive teams. 

 

I understand the issue regarding novice teams that might want to start in the back or might cause hang ups to some of the more competitive teams, however it is your job as the faster, more experienced driver to navigate traffic and race clean too.

 

I did not like the rush to the front method for a couple of reasons.  Coming from the central and not knowing about it caught us off guard at NCM 2015, as we were 4-5 stalls from the front, and all the cars that pushed forward made it so we left at the back of the pack, even though we were strapped in and ready to go.

 

To go along with that, seeing teams rush to the front and continue to work on the car with hand tools, air compressors, even changing a tire to me throws off the whole having to be "ready to race" when you line up.  Plus, when you have a narrow pit lane it can be a struggle for EV's to get past, plus if people aren't paying attention it increases risk to staff and participants not expecting cars to be rolling down pit lane.

 

Again, I liked it and thought it worked well.

 

 

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1 minute ago, red0 said:

 

It may work in theory, but not in practice. 

 

A novice team is not necessarily going to forfeit their starting spot, because that could be embarrassing. They however they generally do not push to the front of the starting grid. 

 

I just hope to not get caught up in any mayhem this may cause in the future. 

 

I disagree.  I think novice teams that aren't comfortable starting right up front will definitely yield their position to start later in the field.  We have done it several times when giving some of our less confident drivers a chance at starting.

 

I also believe that in majority of cases, even if a novice team does choose to start up near the front they will generally take it a bit more easy when packed in with other cars and be faster to yield a position.  That's is just generally what I have seen on track.

 

Also, don't forget that this will spread out all the teams that want to push hard on the start.  So should mean less fast cars traveling together and trying to get through a pack at one time.  I think that is how it would work at least.

 

Also, would it be any different in a restart that just happens to fall with the leader being picked up, followed by 5 mid pack cars that are followed by 5 front running cars?  Seems like that would cause way more mayhem.

 

 

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- I think the random number gridding works better at 2 day events than at single race events (day 2 grid in reverse order to make average start position the same).

- Definitely a better system in every way than the 'random green flag' which has been used in central region in years past.

- Agree with @red0 that 'push to the front' is a nice way to separate the serious competitors who will be going balls out from lap one from the rest of the field. I still don't understand why 'push to the front' is so hated on the east coast. Even if there are 20 other cars who beat you to the front, it's better to start 21st than a random draw where you may start 90th.

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I see both arguments as valid for various reasons, which is why I was curious how it's worked in practice so far.  

 

As a team that was usually near the front with the "old way" we'll miss that advantage but I can't say I ever thought it was terribly "fair.

 

At the same time this gave the faster teams time to catch the back of the field when it spread out making negotiating slow traffic easier. I agree the faster teams should exercise patience in a random start procedure, but it would terrify me as a new driver to have a group of 3 front runners bearing down on me in T1 on the first lap. I guess they could go to the back but I fear most wouldn't. 

 

It's a super fair way to do it. (Less so in a single day race) but I'm leaning towards the old way of doing things even when I try to ignore the clear advantage it typically gave us.

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11 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

I did not like the rush to the front method for a couple of reasons.  Coming from the central and not knowing about it caught us off guard at NCM 2015, as we were 4-5 stalls from the front, and all the cars that pushed forward made it so we left at the back of the pack, even though we were strapped in and ready to go.

 

To go along with that, seeing teams rush to the front and continue to work on the car with hand tools, air compressors, even changing a tire to me throws off the whole having to be "ready to race" when you line up.  Plus, when you have a narrow pit lane it can be a struggle for EV's to get past, plus if people aren't paying attention it increases risk to staff and participants not expecting cars to be rolling down pit lane.

 

3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I still don't understand why 'push to the front' is so hated on the east coast.

I think @hotchkis23 covered a lot of the issues we were concerned about. The land rush at Watkins Glen is what we were reacting to as an organization.

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19 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

Wouldn't this kind of work BETTER at Watkins with an early/often FCY? 

 

I visualize it as getting 5-6 laps to start getting into a running order.  Maybe a car that started at the very end will be 1/2 lap back (3/4??) but has gained 30-50 positions (out of 100, for a front running car, kind of reasonable?  And any car that is racing for a win shouldn't be lapped in that time right?) when the FCY comes out and the leader is collected.  Then they re-start that much closer to the front and that initial disadvantage is significantly reduced.  This also assumes that the top 2 fastest teams are starting at total opposite ends of the field.

 

 

It is VERY easy to get lapped at WGI early on in the race if you didn't start near the front.  Plus, at the beginning of the race, they don't pick up the race leader usually.  Therefore, if you get stuck behind somebody doing 15 mph (which happens every single time), you just lost a lap.

 

If it worked like the big boys do it and everybody bunches up quickly behind the leader, behind the pace car, it would lead to LESS people getting lapped.  It hasn't worked that way in practice the last few years.

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Just now, Doc said:

I think @hotchkis23 covered a lot of the issues we were concerned about. The land rush at Watkins Glen is what we were reacting to as an organization.

Why is everyone still talking about the land rush?

 

- It was stated that such a procedure will never happen again

- Some of the teams should have been black flagged for reckless/dangerous driving anyway

 

I do agree with hotchkis23 but some of his concerns would be addressed if the procedure was more formalized.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Therefore, if you get stuck behind somebody doing 15 mph (which happens every single time), you just lost a lap.

Personally (without my BoD hat on), I would like to see these second pace cars blackflagged. 

Can I still have a personal opinion?

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

It sucked at VIR S since it is such a tight track and there were so many cars.  (It being starting in the order of pit stalls)

 

Im sad this is a thing now. I thought the old way was perfect.  Id much rather take my chances and have a high probability of starting in the first 5-10 rows than have a number generator tell me I'm starting DFL

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