Ogren-Engineering Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 I'm Pretty sure that in the best interest of CC, we dont want to open the race fuel barn door. Some ideas for enforcing a 93 octane rule? 1) Start with a 93 pump gas rule. If anyone suspects race gas is being used , swap some jugs among the pits for a couple of stops. What else, and how hard do we want to enforce this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cagedruss Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Why does anyone care? Race fuel is extremely expensive and if a team wants to spend nearly $12 a gallon so be it. If a team is running a rules legal engine race fuel isn't needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Our car starts at 200 points, with 300 available I'm pretty sure we could build a legal engine within the rules that required race fuel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cagedruss Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Great. Go ahead. I totally cool with it if your fuel budget can afford. If your is that cheap you probably need the power. Edited October 4, 2017 by cagedruss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidry Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) What is the definition of pump gas? California doesn't sell 93 octane fuel at regular stations. 93 Octane ethanol blend contains 7% less energy than 93 pure gasoline. We run 93 no ethanol. How would you police a team mixing 91 and 100 Octane Low Lead? The way this is policed in the upper series is by using a single fuel vendor and all fuel is provided at the race venue. Ryan Edited October 4, 2017 by reidry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 The rule wouldn't read "pump gas". The rule proposed would have to be a octane limiting rule. I submitted a petition back in July. Mike responded and ask for ideas on enforcement as a follow up. I gave him some ideas and products to look into for enforcement as well. I'm sure this will be a topic at the next BOD meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidry Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 My questions are well intended, I clearly understand the "race gas" door of which Mike is speaking. With open ECUs we don't want speed creep advancing at an increasing pace. Just need to be sure we are working from a common understanding. Would you consider posting a proposed rule? Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, cagedruss said: Great. Go ahead. I totally cool with it if your fuel budget can afford. If your is that cheap you probably need the power. I'm not saying I am going to or want to. I'm just saying it is possible with the points available whereas you said it would not be a legal engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cagedruss Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Speed creep? Does Mike want to limit the speed now? Teams get better with car set up, driving skills, tweaking power. Don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidry Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, cagedruss said: Speed creep? Does Mike want to limit the speed now? Teams get better with car set up, driving skills, tweaking power. Don't get it. There is natural speed creep, then there is speed associated with a big turbo, open ECU and 110 octane race fuel. I'd bet there is a team building one for next season. Ryan Edited October 4, 2017 by reidry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 minute ago, reidry said: There is natural speed creep, then there is speed associated with a big turbo, open ECU and 110 octane race fuel. Ryan Don't forget that a turbo has to come from a vehicle on the VPI list. you can't just select any turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cagedruss Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Your are running on crap tires. Ok. It's over my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidry Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ron_e said: Don't forget that a turbo has to come from a vehicle on the VPI list. you can't just select any turbo. Think it's impossible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, reidry said: Think it's impossible? What, a big turbo? I'm just saying it is not unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidry Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Ron_e said: What, a big turbo? I'm just saying it is not unlimited. Definitely not unlimited, but one could scrounge the VPI list for a big turbo and pop it in a Miata, there is a whole class of these little beasties being developed in the SCCA STU class. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted October 4, 2017 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 A jug swap is a horrible idea. I'm not blowing my car up because someone didn't clean their jugs. Also, lots of people run 87 octane and other cars run 93. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottyk Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 More Popcorn please! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, red0 said: A jug swap is a horrible idea. I'm not blowing my car up because someone didn't clean their jugs. Also, lots of people run 87 octane and other cars run 93. Agree, this doesn't seem like the solution. testing fuel randomly can't be that hard can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, red0 said: A jug swap is a horrible idea. I'm not blowing my car up because someone didn't clean their jugs. Also, lots of people run 87 octane and other cars run 93. Random thoughts not aimed @ you Are there that many non rotary folks using less then the max octane @ the quickie mart? One could simply ask the jug swapping members what they run, where would there be benefit for anyone giving improper answers? The only people that fear this are those that need more then 93 Not sure about everyone else but our factory knock control system will compensate, pull timing and not kill itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Would E85 or a blend of E85 and 93 octane be considered "pump gas"? I'm going to need help burning 22 gallons of fuel in 2 hours. I can also get Turbo Blue 110 octane from a pump 5 minutes from my house. I subscribe to the idea that if you can't enforce a rule, then don't make the rule. All it will do is allow the "cheaters" to gain a further advantage over those following the rule to the letter. Like some people have already said, if you want to triple your cost for fuel over a race weekend, go for it. In some cases you can lose power going to a higher octane fuel. Unless you're running 14:1 compression pistons or a turbo, I don't see it helping you very much over 93 octane. Maybe you could gain some fuel economy by running it leaner. If you do want to use race gas with your turbo car, you are going to use ridiculous amount of fuel and need a ridiculous amount of cooling. I think E85 should be allowed since the ~30% fuel you will burn over gas makes up for any power gains you see. It will also help your engine run much cooler. I haven't seen anyone run it yet in a Chumpcar race though... Obligatory hot rod mag link: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0901phr-difference-between-pump-race-gas/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Scribe said: Would E85 or a blend of E85 and 93 octane be considered "pump gas"? Yes it would, this would need addressed, perhaps if this "movement" gained traction it would encourage folks to tune for this. Am I the only one in a major town that only has access to 3 grades of fuel locally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMoneyWasters Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Race gas seems like a huge expense, on top of our already huge expenses. All this for the chance to win a "predator" welded to a rotor?? No thanks... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, reidry said: Just need to be sure we are working from a common understanding. Would you consider posting a proposed rule? Ryan Pretty simple. The octane level to be used for any competing car in the series is limited to 93 octane and lower. The use of any fuel additives are also prohibited. Fuel additive is defined by ANYTHING you pour or mix in with 93 and lower fuel. Yes, there are testing kits, I have sent 3 to Mike Edited October 4, 2017 by Snake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmabarone Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Snake said: Pretty simple. The octane level to be used for any competing car in the series is limited to 93 octane and lower. The use of any fuel additives are also prohibited. Fuel additive is defined by ANYTHING you pour or mix in with 93 and lower fuel. What about premix for rotaries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 4, 2017 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, jmabarone said: What about premix for rotaries? I don't know what premix is, im not a rotary guy. I'm use to 8.4 litres Edited October 4, 2017 by Snake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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