Aluminum Radiators

[MR2 Biohazard]

Aluminum Radiators

 

I have a question for you all and a poll. Do you feel that alum rads should be 20 points or should be zero and why? I bring this up as it seems the current rule and points makes it for us to go out and spend a lot of money on a stock rad instead of a cheaper alum rad because of points. I know of a few teams, me included, that have to do this. I do not have overheating issues with the stock rad and it costs $440 from Toyota. An alum rad from ebay is like $74.99 shipped. Both will function and do the same exact thing for me.  It kills me to just throw away money for no reason at all. I am finishing up a new car build and have been holding off getting the rad from Toyota as it just seem so wrong to just piss money away for no reason at all. I would rather save that money and spend it on racing entry fees.

 

I think the new board, Mike and Phil are very receptive to our needs and wants now compared to the old board that basically was what it was. I think if we come to consensus and agree then they would adjust the rules.

 

BTW- I have not seen a car in CC overheat for years now. The times I have seen them overheat was due to poor radiator ducting and not boxing in the rad. An alum rad would not help that anymore than a stock rad.

 

In the past CC rules were to punish teams for having items that would make a car last longer and this is one of the relics of that ruling as I see it.

 

Pros for alum rads at zero value

-Cost is way way less

-Keeps tech simple with less things to think about it

-it can be easier to get an alum rad for some cars as our cars are getting really old

-Did I mention costs are way cheaper

-More money in racers pockets means more races to enter

-Lower costs means a team can have a new spare in case it is needed and can finish a weekend races

-It can make coming into chumpcar easier from other series as they might already have an alum rad and this might put them over the points. I know one team like this now that runs aer.

 

Cons

-People might argue that they can push to max limit each laps with an alum rad. I do not see how this really makes sense, but have seen that. If you are pushing a car that hard bad things will happen long term as endurance racing is not about FTD every single lap and about finishing.

-Certain cars have cheap stock radiators and do not feel other teams should be able to have alum rads since they do not need one themselves.

 

Maybe I am overthinking it and what is your thoughts.

 

Troy

 

[Bill Strong]

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Chevy-SBC-BBC-Universal-Aluminum-Radiators,3557.html

 

$139.99

[MR2 Biohazard]

Sorry guys. I had it listed as poll only. Fixed so now we can discuss.

[hotchkis23]

Ha, started a separate thread.  Here was my response:

 

It appears the other thread is a poll only with no ability to have any discussion or rebuttal so I thought I would create this one.

 

Troy, you make some good points regarding the cost of replacing a stock radiator in your vehicle.  However, some quick research on google tells me that you might be in a "we didn't pick your car situation".

You state that for most cars getting a cheap ebay radiator will cost less than that of a factory replacement.  First of all, why are you going direct to the dealer?  Is there not another radiator manufacturer that supports your car with an oem one?

 

A few examples using relatively popular cars:

1990 Miata: OEM Replacement$65

1995 BMW 325i: OEM Replacement $58

1992 Nissan 240sx: OEM Replacement $43.00

1994 Chevy Camaro:OEM Replacement $62

1987 Mustang GT: OEM Replacement $107

1987 BMW325i: OEM Replacement $101

1994 Dodge Neon: OEM Replacement $75

1992 Honda Civic: OEM Replacement $45

 

Now, in almost all of these cases the aluminum upgrade is actually a higher cost, especially if we are allowing any aluminum radiator and not just "cheap ebay" ones.  Also, I have had personal experiences buying "cheap ebay" parts that have come and had issues with fitment, construction, early failures, etc.  The OEM Replacements we have gotten for when we ran a stock radiator had no issues, and they even came with a warranty.

 

Now, our current setup with our swap we do require a larger capacity radiator to be able to keep the engine temps where we want them.  We chose to purchase an aluminum radiator and pay the 20 points for it.  As you said, you have not seen any CC overheat from inadequate stock cooling in years and if they have it has been from poor ducting and other things.

 

As shown above with values, most of the commonly raced cars have affordable options for OEM replacements available that allow them to purchase multiples to keep on hand and keep them on the track. 

 

Are the aluminum radiators that you are proposing to make free needing to keep the stock capacity and design of an OEM unit?  Or are you wanting to allow blanket aluminum units across the board? 

You are consistently advocating for free reliability on the premise that it will make racing cheaper for everyone in the long run.  I can appreciate that, but I will counter and say to the guy that puts a junkyard motor in his car vs the guy that goes out and has a pro shop build his motor who has more at stake?  That is already happening.  Now, allow free cooling upgrades, free accusumps, free anything else related to engine longevity and you will see the teams that can afford to spend $$$ do it and then the guy that you were advocating on being able to race for cheaper, will be looking to run a different series because they can't compete with the amount of $$$ being spent on other aspects of the car now that they don't have to worry about reliability.

 

Just my opinion from the other side of the argument.  Debate away.

[Hi_Im_Will]

Keep the rules stable. 

 

But if you want to rationalize the rules a bit, make all non-oe radiators the same number of points, aluminum or otherwise.  Put a dollar cap on the rad if you're worried about the actual cost, but the material should be irrelevant.  10 points sounds like a good compromise.  Just like an accusump or an oil cooler, it lets you push the car harder, for a small penalty.  Big radiators are enablers for other performance enhancers, so they should not be free. 

[Bill Strong]

For the record, older cars like the 1st and 2nd gen MR2 which Troy races, is limited to aluminum or OE sold radiators. Some radiator websites may list a Mr2 rad, but when you order it, you get an email back stating they don't make them, but they can sell you an overpriced aluminum rad.

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

1 minute ago, hotchkis23 said:

Ha, started a separate thread.  Here was my response:

 

It appears the other thread is a poll only with no ability to have any discussion or rebuttal so I thought I would create this one.

 

Troy, you make some good points regarding the cost of replacing a stock radiator in your vehicle.  However, some quick research on google tells me that you might be in a "we didn't pick your car situation".

You state that for most cars getting a cheap ebay radiator will cost less than that of a factory replacement.  First of all, why are you going direct to the dealer?  Is there not another radiator manufacturer that supports your car with an oem one?

 

A few examples using relatively popular cars:

1990 Miata: OEM Replacement$65

1995 BMW 325i: OEM Replacement $58

1992 Nissan 240sx: OEM Replacement $43.00

1994 Chevy Camaro:OEM Replacement $62

1987 Mustang GT: OEM Replacement $107

1987 BMW325i: OEM Replacement $101

1994 Dodge Neon: OEM Replacement $75

1992 Honda Civic: OEM Replacement $45

 

Now, in almost all of these cases the aluminum upgrade is actually a higher cost, especially if we are allowing any aluminum radiator and not just "cheap ebay" ones.  Also, I have had personal experiences buying "cheap ebay" parts that have come and had issues with fitment, construction, early failures, etc.  The OEM Replacements we have gotten for when we ran a stock radiator had no issues, and they even came with a warranty.

 

Now, our current setup with our swap we do require a larger capacity radiator to be able to keep the engine temps where we want them.  We chose to purchase an aluminum radiator and pay the 20 points for it.  As you said, you have not seen any CC overheat from inadequate stock cooling in years and if they have it has been from poor ducting and other things.

 

As shown above with values, most of the commonly raced cars have affordable options for OEM replacements available that allow them to purchase multiples to keep on hand and keep them on the track. 

 

Are the aluminum radiators that you are proposing to make free needing to keep the stock capacity and design of an OEM unit?  Or are you wanting to allow blanket aluminum units across the board? 

You are consistently advocating for free reliability on the premise that it will make racing cheaper for everyone in the long run.  I can appreciate that, but I will counter and say to the guy that puts a junkyard motor in his car vs the guy that goes out and has a pro shop build his motor who has more at stake?  That is already happening.  Now, allow free cooling upgrades, free accusumps, free anything else related to engine longevity and you will see the teams that can afford to spend $$$ do it and then the guy that you were advocating on being able to race for cheaper, will be looking to run a different series because they can't compete with the amount of $$$ being spent on other aspects of the car now that they don't have to worry about reliability.

 

Just my opinion from the other side of the argument.  Debate away.

My local one if I go in is $440 and online I found one for $300 plus shipping so maybe $325. Ebay is $75. That is my situation. On the prices you said on certain cars I am pricing from Toyota. On your pricing I would love to know how you got those prices and from where as when I looked I could not find them. OEM Mazda rad I saw was $125.

 

I would like to see how you have your radiator boxed in and how it is setup. I think even with a swap then it should be fine, but maybe the rad is crazy tiny stock.

 

I was thinking stock alum radiator location and type. I am not saying go out and get a custom $800 radiator made as that is against the point as I want cheaper radiator options.

 

On the we did not choose your car statement. I think that is the most played out statement made and really a statement that John C started to say F U when he did not have a valid answer or did not feel like dealing with someone. I personally hate it and see it as a giant slap in face. What that means to most of us when it is said is you should have chosen an E36.

 

I can see the side of building an engine to max and I think those teams will do it with free items or not. I think an accusump on a junk yard motor to keep a team running and finish a race is way more likely than the guy that spends $10,000 on a motor or thinks they need to. Maybe I see that as a 10:1 ratio. For every 10 people that use it to make a normal car last longer then the guy who rebuilds is crazy is the one. Also, are there not rules in place now to have people not build up a motor and make crazy hp now?

 

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

13 minutes ago, Hi_Im_Will said:

Keep the rules stable. 

 

But if you want to rationalize the rules a bit, make all non-oe radiators the same number of points, aluminum or otherwise.  Put a dollar cap on the rad if you're worried about the actual cost, but the material should be irrelevant.  10 points sounds like a good compromise.  Just like an accusump or an oil cooler, it lets you push the car harder, for a small penalty.  Big radiators are enablers for other performance enhancers, so they should not be free. 

I like stable rules also, but with a thought. Rules that would change to hurt people, like add points or get rid of a team is a big no no in my book. If a rule is put forth that will not hurt anyone then why can we not have a new rule? Why do we have to keep rules as they are not change anything at all when we can make a change for the better? I think a rule change that would effect people and give them points or laps would be a bad thing as they might be building a car now based on the rules. If halfway through the build they find out an alum rad is now free then that would not change their choice to build that car. If we changed a swap rule and it now more points then yes. So I agree with you there.

 

Maybe we could simple say you can swap in an alum radiator if it is the same size as a stock radiator. I think that does make sense to me as I see your point in putting in a giant radiator due to ultra high compression and engine running hotter.

 

Accusump I will say all day long should be free and encouraged, but that is a topic for another thread.

[wvumtnbkr]

So, you aren't going to have any aero on the car? 

 

Does aero make you faster?

 

If aero does make you faster, then you have a choice of what you should spend your points on.

 

Giving you a free radiator essentially gives you free aero (or whatever else you might want to spend your 20 points on).

 

 

 

STOP the SPEED and spending escalation.

 

 

Nobody is telling you that you can't have the stuff on your car that helps you save money.  You just need to pick and choose what to spend points on.

[MR2 Biohazard]

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

So, you aren't going to have any aero on the car? 

 

Does aero make you faster?

 

If aero does make you faster, then you have a choice of what you should spend your points on.

 

Giving you a free radiator essentially gives you free aero (or whatever else you might want to spend your 20 points on).

 

 

 

STOP the SPEED and spending escalation.

 

 

Nobody is telling you that you can't have the stuff on your car that helps you save money.  You just need to pick and choose what to spend points on.

No it does not at all. It gives you the option of using an alum rad that is cheaper. Aero should be points as most think it will make you faster. When done correctly it will.

 

I am proposing to stop spending and why would you think I am not.

 

So in your approach if I save money on something it should equate to points added and penalize me for it?

 

I am not changing my car at all and I think most will not also. I would like to save $200-300 on a radiator that has no effect on my cars performance or anything. Right now I have a stock rad and zero points and do not overheat so an alum rad will do the same thing, just cheaper. I have to go and spend $300+ on a stock rad to not have points added. I can do it with a stock rad or alum rad, makes no difference, just cost for me.

[wvumtnbkr]

Dude, Im smelling what you are putting down.

 

Take your 2 aero devices off and run your aluminum radiator.  Save the money.  Your choice.

 

Here is my response from another thread....

 

 

Lets stop and think about why teams are asking for items to be added to the FREE list.  Is there any other reason for an item to be free other than you don't want to pay for it?  Why don't you want to pay for it?  Because you are out of money(pts) or want to spend the money(pts) on something else.  Well then, adjust your priorities.  Either have go fast stuff on the car that requires points or spend points on reliability. 

 

 

Nobody is telling you that you are not allowed an aluminum radiator.  Nobody is saying you cant save real money and run the aluminum radiator.

 

You have made a decision to run aero on your car.  That is at least 20 points.  That was YOUR CHOICE. 

[hotchkis23]

24 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

My local one if I go in is $440 and online I found one for $300 plus shipping so maybe $325. Ebay is $75. That is my situation. On the prices you said on certain cars I am pricing from Toyota. On your pricing I would love to know how you got those prices and from where as when I looked I could not find them. OEM Mazda rad I saw was $125.

 

I would like to see how you have your radiator boxed in and how it is setup. I think even with a swap then it should be fine, but maybe the rad is crazy tiny stock.

 

I was thinking stock alum radiator location and type. I am not saying go out and get a custom $800 radiator made as that is against the point as I want cheaper radiator options.

 

On the we did not choose your car statement. I think that is the most played out statement made and really a statement that John C started to say F U when he did not have a valid answer or did not feel like dealing with someone. I personally hate it and see it as a giant slap in face. What that means to most of us when it is said is you should have chosen an E36.

 

I can see the side of building an engine to max and I think those teams will do it with free items or not. I think an accusump on a junk yard motor to keep a team running and finish a race is way more likely than the guy that spends $10,000 on a motor or thinks they need to. Maybe I see that as a 10:1 ratio. For every 10 people that use it to make a normal car last longer then the guy who rebuilds is crazy is the one. Also, are there not rules in place now to have people not build up a motor and make crazy hp now?

 

 

1990 Miata OEM: Linky

Mainly found on CarParts.com(not the junkyard site), Parts Geek, etc.  Just dig and you can find them.  Also, ebay has a lot of oem radiator options, both new and heaven forbid, used as well.

 

Our radiator has a full box coming from the air dam, then is vented directly behind before the front of the motor.  It was merely a capacity thing when you increase the displacement by ~40%, have the exhaust on a different side of the motor, etc.  Stock radiator might have been ok, as we were seeing temps in the 210-220 range, but in race conditions and hot days expected that to jump to where we would not be comfortable.  So, since it enhances our ability to race the car we took the 20 pt. hit and put in an aftermarket aluminum one.  Didn't even think to complain about it because we realize we need it to be able to race the car. 

 

I can say 100% the amount of really well built motors that I have seen just in this season alone has increased compared to the people pissed off about spending points on a radiator.

 

As to the "you picked it line" what about the guys with small fuel tanks?  What about the guys that have to swap to be competitive?  They are in the same boat.  Hell, what do you think parts cost for the guys running the Masserati Bi-Turbo, or the 78 Alfa?  I'm guessing they spend more on stock parts than you do because of lack of part support. 

 

Like Rob said above, take off the splitter, or take of the wing, then add the radiator.

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by hotchkis23

[wvumtnbkr]

6 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 I would like to save $200-300 on a radiator that has no effect on my cars performance or anything.

That 20 points it costs is the same as 20 points in performance stuff.

Aluminum rad is 20 points.

20 pts is a wing and a splitter. 

 

Do the math...

Current situation:

Aluminum rad = splitter + wing = 20 points.

 

Your proposal is this equation...

Aluminum Rad = Free.

 

If we take your new equation and apply it to the above current equation you get:

Aluminum rad = splitter + wing = free.

 

No thanks!

[Gearhead_42]

Just throwing in my support for free or *significantly reduced* point cost reliability upgrades.  Quality radiators, fluid coolers, oil pans, etc should not be as much or MORE of a hit than many go fast parts (header? camber plates? complete differential or transmission swap? to name a few.) 

 

Hell, you can call a replacement pan "required" for your swap and it's free... why do I pay 25 points?

 

Wait a minute, I'm swapped and paying 25 points for the pan... DAMN YOU HONESTY!

 

 

[MR2 Biohazard]

3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Dude, Im smelling what you are putting down.

 

Take your 2 aero devices off and run your aluminum radiator.  Save the money.  Your choice.

 

Here is my response from another thread....

 

 

Lets stop and think about why teams are asking for items to be added to the FREE list.  Is there any other reason for an item to be free other than you don't want to pay for it?  Why don't you want to pay for it?  Because you are out of money(pts) or want to spend the money(pts) on something else.  Well then, adjust your priorities.  Either have go fast stuff on the car that requires points or spend points on reliability. 

 

 

Nobody is telling you that you are not allowed an aluminum radiator.  Nobody is saying you cant save real money and run the aluminum radiator.

 

You have made a decision to run aero on your car.  That is at least 20 points.  That was YOUR CHOICE. 

I think you missed the entire point of my post to be honest. An alum rad or stock rad makes zero, zippy, no difference at all for my car speed wise or overheating. It only has to do with it costing more money, cash that is, out of my pocket. If I am the only team in the entire paddock that has this issue of a stock rad costing way way more than an alum rad and I am the only in the paddock that would save money from it, then I am OK with spending more money on it, if I have to.

 

I do not know how you equated to save some real cash money on a rad to go straight to aero.

[Andrew D Johnson]

37 minutes ago, Hi_Im_Will said:

Keep the rules stable. 

 

But if you want to rationalize the rules a bit, make all non-oe radiators the same number of points, aluminum or otherwise.  Put a dollar cap on the rad if you're worried about the actual cost, but the material should be irrelevant.  10 points sounds like a good compromise.  Just like an accusump or an oil cooler, it lets you push the car harder, for a small penalty.  Big radiators are enablers for other performance enhancers, so they should not be free. 

 

I can't believe how much I generally agree with Will in regards to the rules. 

 

Keep em' stable, and I agree with rest too. 

[Jab31169]

For us e36 guys, im all about free since we have no points to give since we drive god's racecar

[MR2 Biohazard]

3 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

1990 Miata OEM: Linky

Mainly found on CarParts.com(not the junkyard site), Parts Geek, etc.  Just dig and you can find them.  Also, ebay has a lot of oem radiator options, both new and heaven forbid, used as well.

 

Our radiator has a full box coming from the air dam, then is vented directly behind before the front of the motor.  It was merely a capacity thing when you increase the displacement by ~40%, have the exhaust on a different side of the motor, etc.  Stock radiator might have been ok, as we were seeing temps in the 210-220 range, but in race conditions and hot days expected that to jump to where we would not be comfortable.  So, since it enhances our ability to race the car we took the 20 pt. hit and put in an aftermarket aluminum one.  Didn't even think to complain about it because we realize we need it to be able to race the car. 

 

I can say 100% the amount of really well built motors that I have seen just in this season alone has increased compared to the people pissed off about spending points on a radiator.

 

 

I can understand that then. You increased you size significantly then as the stock rad is small so you need it.

 

Maybe if a stock rad capacity as I would think a stock rad vs an alum rad in the same size should have about the same function.

[wvumtnbkr]

Just now, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think you missed the entire point of my post to be honest. An alum rad or stock rad makes zero, zippy, no difference at all for my car speed wise or overheating. It only has to do with it costing more money, cash that is, out of my pocket. If I am the only team in the entire paddock that has this issue of a stock rad costing way way more than an alum rad and I am the only in the paddock that would save money from it, then I am OK with spending more money on it, if I have to.

 

I do not know how you equated to save some real cash money on a rad to go straight to aero.

You are good at redirecting, Ill give you that!

 

 

 

Why do you want to have aluminum radiators be zero points?  My guess is that you have no points to play with.

 

If you have no points to play with, you would need to remove some go fast bits to run your money saving radiator.  (which you are totally and completely allowed to do)

 

You don't want to remove go fast bits.

 

You want your cake and eat it to.

 

Therefore, you are proposing to have them be free.

[MR2 Biohazard]

2 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

I can't believe how much I generally agree with Will in regards to the rules. 

 

Keep em' stable, and I agree with rest too. 

Shocker Andrew said keep the rules the same and change nothing ever.

 

 

BTW- you ever notice it ends up being the same 5-10 guys on the board going back and forth with ideas and comments. We have our own little dysfunctional family at times here.

[Andrew D Johnson]

20 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So, you aren't going to have any aero on the car? 

Does aero make you faster?

If aero does make you faster, then you have a choice of what you should spend your points on.

Giving you a free radiator essentially gives you free aero (or whatever else you might want to spend your 20 points on).

STOP the SPEED and spending escalation.

Nobody is telling you that you can't have the stuff on your car that helps you save money.  You just need to pick and choose what to spend points on.

 

I think there has already been to much speed creep. I realize that the "cat is out of the bag" and you can't really go back. That being said, the rules are quite awesome for parity.....just look at the mix of cars that were fighting for the lead this weekend at PITT. 

 

No more changes, no more creep. 

[Hi_Im_Will]

17 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Maybe we could simple say you can swap in an alum radiator if it is the same size as a stock radiator. I think that does make sense to me as I see your point in putting in a giant radiator due to ultra high compression and engine running hotter.

 

I'd accept free aluminum radiators under these conditions:

Same hose locations/diameters as OE

Core thickness same as or up to .25" thinner than OE (no buying weight in radiator capacity)

Width and height same as OE or up to 2" smaller (no mini-rads for other nefarious purposes)

No smaller than 1/2" tube (none of that micro-channel BS)

Pre-approval of part required by tech

 

Basically, allow a non OE aluminum radiator, but it's function (in every way, not just cooling capacity) must match OE.  That gets you your low cost alternative to OEM, but makes it very difficult to sneak in a performance gain points-free.  

 

[hotchkis23]

2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I can understand that then. You increased you size significantly then as the stock rad is small so you need it.

 

Maybe if a stock rad capacity as I would think a stock rad vs an alum rad in the same size should have about the same function.

I can find myself being more in agreement with that, but enforcement becomes an issue.

 

[tommytipover]

5 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Dude, Im smelling what you are putting down.

 

 

I'm starting to believe that the BoD needs to put the genie back in the bottle, and announce that in X number of years we are going to un-free the free stuff and reevaluate VPIs.  I'm really tired of the equivalencies people make between free stuff, not free stuff, and "durability enhancers".  If it makes the car better, pay for it.  That's the theory in racing a 200 VPI car against a 500 VPI car.

[Andrew D Johnson]

2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Shocker Andrew said keep the rules the same and change nothing ever.

 

BTW- you ever notice it ends up being the same 5-10 guys on the board going back and forth with ideas and comments. We have our own little dysfunctional family at times here.

 

You always have lots of ideas. That is not a bad thing, eventually one of your ideas will be good and when that day comes I will be the first to point out that its a great idea.