Vehicle weight list

[mender]

No, it's not about a wait list for race event entries ...

 

We have a printable VPi list, how about a printable/searchable weight list to go with it so we don't have to guess at the official weight. And I know there's a list because I see the results every time the swap formula spits it out.

 

I think it would be quite useful to be able to go through the list and do sanity checks, especially given how sensitive the swap formula is to weights. Or is it a secret?

[enginerd]

4 hours ago, mender said:

No, it's not about a wait list for race event entries ...

 

We have a printable VPi list, how about a printable/searchable weight list to go with it so we don't have to guess at the official weight. And I know there's a list because I see the results every time the swap formula spits it out.

 

I think it would be quite useful to be able to go through the list and do sanity checks, especially given how sensitive the swap formula is to weights. Or is it a secret?

Has to remain sorta secret so that it can be used to make subtle nerfs / buffs to different swaps

[mender]

28 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Has to remain sorta secret so that it can be used to make subtle nerfs / buffs to different swaps

I had several replies but if true I think I'll just leave it at no comment.

[enginerd]

6 minutes ago, mender said:

I had several replies but if true I think I'll just leave it at no comment.

I doubt it's true.. but I do think it's a good idea (except for the part where we don't want to make changes... that would be a problem).

[mender]

5 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I doubt it's true.. but I do think it's a good idea. Let's say, hypothetically, the swap rule works well for the vast majority of cars... and 1% of cars get a super advantage... I would want a hidden 'fudge factor' (like the weight) that I could alter to bring those few cars back in line with the performance of the rest of the group. The whole point of implementing the rule was parity among swapped cars and between swapped and unswapped cars.

And if that 1% just happen to get that super advantage as the result of 20% lightening of the car? Then what?

[enginerd]

Just now, mender said:

And if that 1%just happen to get that super advantage as the result of 20% lightening of the car? Then what?

Then you amend the listed vehicle weight to something lower such that the point value is more representative of the actual new PWR  (which is what should have been done in the first place, but I was not involved). (also I amended my post).

[mender]

7 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Then you amend the listed vehicle weight to something lower such that the point value is more representative of the actual new PWR  (which is what should have been done in the first place, but I was not involved). (also I amended my post).

But typically it's a one-of, not a field of cars that suddenly swarm the podium.

 

And to me, your idea is just more reason to get actual real PWRs to work from, not fudged published data. I appreciate your apparent support of that.

 

So easy to do but surprisingly so much resistance to doing that.

 

[mender]

On 10/14/2017 at 7:49 PM, mender said:

But typically it's a one-of, not a field of cars that suddenly swarm the podium.

 

And to me, your idea is just more reason to get actual real PWRs to work from, not fudged published data. I appreciate your apparent support of that.

 

So easy to do but surprisingly so much resistance to doing that.

 

So in view of recent interest/unrest, is this a good time to resurrect this topic?

[mender]

I'll start:

'87-'88 Fiero swap weight: 2512 lbs

'84-'86 Fiero swap weight: 2216 lbs (was 2512 lbs sometime last year IIRC)

 

Just to clarify, these are the list weights, not actual race weight. My Fiero's race weight was 2550 lbs with full fuel at its lightest.

[zack_280]

Our 'stock '87 E30 should be a bit under 2400 lbs with no driver and a full tank of fuel.  We weighed for a WRL race with ~1/2 a tank of fuel at about 2350. @CabotTeg118 feel free to correct that number if I am not remembering correctly.

 

'87 E30 (no driver, full of fuel): 2400

[hotchkis23]

Just now, zack_280 said:

Our 'stock '87 E30 should be a bit under 2400 lbs with no driver and a full tank of fuel.  We weighed for a WRL race with ~1/2 a tank of fuel at about 2350. @CabotTeg118 feel free to correct that number if I am not remembering correctly.

 

'87 E30 (no driver, full of fuel): 2400

Our Miata, full of fuel, no driver, and with our engine swap, and 9" wheels with 245's is ~2080  I believe.  Calculator says all NA Miatas weigh 2048.

[CabotTeg118]

5 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

Our 'stock '87 E30 should be a bit under 2400 lbs with no driver and a full tank of fuel.  We weighed for a WRL race with ~1/2 a tank of fuel at about 2350. @CabotTeg118 feel free to correct that number if I am not remembering correctly.

 

'87 E30 (no driver, full of fuel): 2400

 

The lightest we were was 2320 with fuel. Then we added a wing, splitter, and an extra ~40lbs of NASCAR wheels, so we're just under 2400 now.

[mender]

20 minutes ago, CabotTeg118 said:

 

The lightest we were was 2320 with fuel. Then we added a wing, splitter, and an extra ~40lbs of NASCAR wheels, so we're just under 2400 now.

How much work did you do to get down that low?

[zack_280]

6 minutes ago, mender said:

How much work did you do to get down that low?

Removed EVERYTHING that wasn't the metal body from the interior.  Removed all unnecessary wiring (Phil built a new ECU harness from scratch).  Gutted hood, doors, and deck lid.  Lexan side and rear windows.  Lightweight battery.  I'd call it a thorough prep, but not extreme.  Then we added aero and ridiculously heavy steelies.

[Black Magic]

Old black magic car, 95 neon with 2.4 swap. 

 

2112 with full fuel load and driver aids. All fluids filled to the top including cool suit,No driver.

 

I would guess about 2050 with driver aids (cool suit, drinks, electronics crap). With better cage build and pulling oil cooler, Accusump and brake cooling feel confident about 2050 or less. This is with extreme weight reduction on the body. The 2048 champ weight is a little ambitious, but achievable if you go nuts on the weight.

 

When i bought the car it raced champ at over 2400 lbs. Spec neon is closer to the stock weight of high 2400s than 2000, so i would say the chump weight is a little light for neons unless all cars get 85% of Edmonds lowest weight for that motor\trans\chassis combo.

 

I sent mike an email with weights vs common cars, showing the span in champ weights vs Edmonds x some factor (i chose 10%). Big surprise the winning cars are most misrepresented, but up to 10-15% (like e30).

[thewheelerZ]

48 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Old black magic car, 95 neon with 2.4 swap. 

 

2112 with full fuel load and driver aids. All fluids filled to the top including cool suit,No driver.

 

I would guess about 2050 with driver aids (cool suit, drinks, electronics crap). With better cage build and pulling oil cooler, Accusump and brake cooling feel confident about 2050 or less. This is with extreme weight reduction on the body. The 2048 champ weight is a little ambitious, but achievable if you go nuts on the weight.

 

When i bought the car it raced champ at over 2400 lbs. Spec neon is closer to the stock weight of high 2400s than 2000, so i would say the chump weight is a little light for neons unless all cars get 85% of Edmonds lowest weight for that motor\trans\chassis combo.

 

I sent mike an email with weights vs common cars, showing the span in champ weights vs Edmonds x some factor (i chose 10%). Big surprise the winning cars are most misrepresented, but up to 10-15% (like e30).

 

FWIW, I saw a Neon with what I would call "extreme" weight loss (hint, it doesn't sound like yours is quite at that level!) and weigh in at around 1800lbs.

[mender]

13 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

FWIW, I saw a Neon with what I would call "extreme" weight loss (hint, it doesn't sound like yours is quite at that level!) and weigh in at around 1800lbs.

And I guess that's where the variance lies: the amount of effort that a team puts into getting the weight down.

 

What would be a reasonable weight for a car given the same level of weight reduction? Does the official Champ weight accurately reflect that?

1 hour ago, zack_280 said:

Removed EVERYTHING that wasn't the metal body from the interior.  Removed all unnecessary wiring (Phil built a new ECU harness from scratch).  Gutted hood, doors, and deck lid.  Lexan side and rear windows.  Lightweight battery.  I'd call it a thorough prep, but not extreme. 

 

My Fiero has the same (except door skins only, no structure and no side windows) and this year is getting the lightweight battery to get it down close to 2500 lbs at race weight. Champcar list weight is 2512 lbs, so very close.

[Black Magic]

25 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

FWIW, I saw a Neon with what I would call "extreme" weight loss (hint, it doesn't sound like yours is quite at that level!) and weigh in at around 1800lbs.

 

2.0 sohc vs 2.4 dohc is substantial, especially before we could claim aluminium motor mount stuff. Sort of like using a 318 vs 325 bmw weight.

 

I cut the windshield out to gut the roof, pillar and upper body supports. Welded roof back on. After crash in 2016 bill comment (shit there is nothing there on live stream...). Doors are outer skins only as is all of the chassis. Reduced wiring harness and crash support. Within legal limits, we we trying hard. Next level is buying stuff, lighter flywheel, wheels, etc. 

 

Maybe lighter cage....but there isnt much left to take off this thing. 

 

I think alot of "weights" are never measured on scales....catch my drift? 2100 as it came off the track, 2050 if you take all the stuff out. I would have sworn mid 1900s if we were drinking over beers....the real weight by the time you turn the key adds up.

 

 

[Aquafi Racing]

After reading this list I'm feeling a little self-conscious, we put our 92 325 on a diet and even gave it a hair cut and we are still over 2700 closer to 2800 I believe.  Maybe another e36 team could help me out here.  

[mender]

42 minutes ago, Aquafi Racing said:

After reading this list I'm feeling a little self-conscious, we put our 92 325 on a diet and even gave it a hair cut and we are still over 2700 closer to 2800 I believe.  Maybe another e36 team could help me out here.  

I've seen 2550-2600 quoted for E36s.

 

Edit: a prior thread:

 

[Jab31169]

I believe we were in the 2700's with half a tank of fuel, no driver.  Still have a bit more to strip, but it's down the nitty gritty if we want to get really light.  If we went really nuts we could maybe get it into the 2600's with fuel and driver.  

 

Before I bought into the team, I think the car was closer to 2900.  Then I bought a grinder and went to town on some unnecessary metal, along with a new lighter exhaust.  Hopefully she'll get a bit lighter before each race as Im allowed to cut even more out of the car.

[Wittenauer Racing]

1972 Austin Mini, 1275cc/4 speed gearbox (stock driveline with lightened flywheel), 10x6" wheels, moderate gutting (but some rust repair probably added that back), 10 gallon cell: 1438 lbs.

 

Champcar weight: 1202

 

I'm guessing I'll find another 30 pounds tops (battery is big right now, doors and trunklid could be gutted better), but not 230.... Most people I've talked to agree somewhere around 1250 is possible with a MK1 with fiberglass doors, bonnet, boot lid, roof, acid dip, etc, but 1400 is pretty common for metal cars.

 

Haven't weighed the Supra yet, hope to soon though...

 

[Aquafi Racing]

1 hour ago, Aquafi Racing said:

After reading this list I'm feeling a little self-conscious, we put our 92 325 on a diet and even gave it a hair cut and we are still over 2700 closer to 2800 I believe.  Maybe another e36 team could help me out here.  

 

 

I'd like to apologize, I was way off.  Just out of curiosity I went out into the shop and weighed my car.  2447 lb's  with half a tank of fuel.

[thewheelerZ]

1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

2.0 sohc vs 2.4 dohc is substantial, especially before we could claim aluminium motor mount stuff. Sort of like using a 318 vs 325 bmw weight.

 

I cut the windshield out to gut the roof, pillar and upper body supports. Welded roof back on. After crash in 2016 bill comment (shit there is nothing there on live stream...). Doors are outer skins only as is all of the chassis. Reduced wiring harness and crash support. Within legal limits, we we trying hard. Next level is buying stuff, lighter flywheel, wheels, etc. 

 

Maybe lighter cage....but there isnt much left to take off this thing. 

 

I think alot of "weights" are never measured on scales....catch my drift? 2100 as it came off the track, 2050 if you take all the stuff out. I would have sworn mid 1900s if we were drinking over beers....the real weight by the time you turn the key adds up.

 

 

 

I'll take that back, this looks fairly extreme. I have no idea about 2.0 vs 2.4 but this neon had basically no back end. It was on a Saturday night after a race. No idea what was included. 

[Black Magic]

6 minutes ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

I'll take that back, this looks fairly extreme. I have no idea about 2.0 vs 2.4 but this neon had basically no back end. It was on a Saturday night after a race. No idea what was included. 

 

This car? Its the other neon team i help.

 

I bet there is 100 lbs between all of our neons. That car lacked the driver aids, cooling system and back half. I would give it 100 lbs less than mine. The owner thinks it is 1900, the owner doesn't own scales