JDM Engine Swap Legality

[BDG]

So I did a bit of searching here and through the rulebook, but am a little unclear on whether we can legally use JDM for engine swaps. I did find a post from Bill Strong in the 2017 rule discussion that (and I'm paraphrasing here), yes, they're fine as long as they're essentially similar to USDM and have approx the same power output.

 

More complete pic of what our team is planning: We currently run a DC Integra with stock 140hp B18B and our car comes in at 355pts after our mods. She sorely lacks uuuntz and our plan to get there is a B18C (GSR) engine. The USDM B18C1 170hp variants seem hard to find in anything but ragged to the tits scrapyard variety that add a rebuild to the cost, most resellers have stock of lower milage 180hp JDM B18C's. Close enough on hp? I dunno.

 

Have no problem declaring 180hp in the swap calc, we have the point budget for it, but I don't to drop a bunch of coin on a swap that could get us rule weenied if we (unexpectedly) start to do well and finding a USDM seems tricky in Canada (which would really suck when we eventually blow it up and get sidelined while we source and rebuild another)

 

Thoughts?

[Gearhead_42]

3 hours ago, BDG said:

So I did a bit of searching here and through the rulebook, but am a little unclear on whether we can legally use JDM for engine swaps. I did find a post from Bill Strong in the 2017 rule discussion that (and I'm paraphrasing here), yes, they're fine as long as they're essentially similar to USDM and have approx the same power output.

 

More complete pic of what our team is planning: We currently run a DC Integra with stock 140hp B18B and our car comes in at 355pts after our mods. She sorely lacks uuuntz and our plan to get there is a B18C (GSR) engine. The USDM B18C1 170hp variants seem hard to find in anything but ragged to the tits scrapyard variety that add a rebuild to the cost, most resellers have stock of lower milage 180hp JDM B18C's. Close enough on hp? I dunno.

 

Have no problem declaring 180hp in the swap calc, we have the point budget for it, but I don't to drop a bunch of coin on a swap that could get us rule weenied if we (unexpectedly) start to do well and finding a USDM seems tricky in Canada (which would really suck when we eventually blow it up and get sidelined while we source and rebuild another)

 

Thoughts?

Formulate your clear proposal, document both the similarities and the differences, and request a ruling via email from Mike and/or Phil (contact info on the website)... if you're reasonable and not trying to fudge things, you should be fine.  Be patient, they're rather busy folks

[Andrew D Johnson]

3 hours ago, BDG said:

So I did a bit of searching here and through the rulebook, but am a little unclear on whether we can legally use JDM for engine swaps. I did find a post from Bill Strong in the 2017 rule discussion that (and I'm paraphrasing here), yes, they're fine as long as they're essentially similar to USDM and have approx the same power output.

 

More complete pic of what our team is planning: We currently run a DC Integra with stock 140hp B18B and our car comes in at 355pts after our mods. She sorely lacks uuuntz and our plan to get there is a B18C (GSR) engine. The USDM B18C1 170hp variants seem hard to find in anything but ragged to the tits scrapyard variety that add a rebuild to the cost, most resellers have stock of lower milage 180hp JDM B18C's. Close enough on hp? I dunno.

 

Have no problem declaring 180hp in the swap calc, we have the point budget for it, but I don't to drop a bunch of coin on a swap that could get us rule weenied if we (unexpectedly) start to do well and finding a USDM seems tricky in Canada (which would really suck when we eventually blow it up and get sidelined while we source and rebuild another)

 

Thoughts?

 

A B18B that is rated at 142HP instead of the 140HP is considered the same because the engines are the same, the extra 2 HP is gained from the exhaust or ECU change for Japanese gasoline. The B18C SIR-G vs the B18C1 GS-R engine has a piston change however and the engines are not equal do to the change. 

 

The JDM B18C SiR-G engine runs P72-00 pistons, giving the engine a static compression ratio of 10.6:1 

 

The USDM B18C1 GS-R engine runs P72-A0 pistons, giving the engine a static compression ratio of 10:1 

 

You should be 100% OK to run the JDM B18C SIR-G engine as long as you claim the points for 180HP in your swap documentation.

[JDChristianson]

Does the JDM version swap come in under the $1500 mark?    How does it fly with the must come from another car on the list?  Not saying it shouldn't be ok claiming the correct HP, I'm just not sure the rules are written to accommodate JDM engines.

 

[BDG]

I think Gearhead nailed it. Will submit to Mark and Phil and make sure our plans are all good.

 

Plan B I guess is spend more money, rebuild a ragged out USDM motor and hope it never ever explodes

[JDChristianson]

Seems like good plan.  Report back with your answer please. It be good for a lot of people to know.  

[wvumtnbkr]

Didn't the Fit at Pitt Race get sent to EC because the exact engine they swapped in didn't exist in the US?

 

I would think this B18C SiR Gobbledegook would fall into that same trap.

 

Check with Phil and get an answer before spending a ton of money and time to run EC.

[Gearhead_42]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Didn't the Fit at Pitt Race get sent to EC because the exact engine they swapped in didn't exist in the US?

 

I would think this B18C SiR Gobbledegook would fall into that same trap.

 

Check with Phil and get an answer before spending a ton of money and time to run EC.

 

It was from a newer chassis not on the list (TSX? TL-S? maybe?) and they didn't get it added via request prior to getting to the track, therefore EC.  

[wvumtnbkr]

9 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

 

It was from a newer chassis not on the list (TSX? TL-S? maybe?) and they didn't get it added via request prior to getting to the track, therefore EC.  

 

The TSX and TL-S are similar to engines on the VPI list, right?  Just a Honda K24.  (Like in the Odyssey, Element, Accord, and CR-V) Just the numbers after are different.  Isnt that the same issue here?  Both the CRV and the Accord K24 are listed in the VPI.

 

K24 A2 (swapped in - 200 HP) Versus K24 A1 or A8 (the ones the US got, 160-166 HP).

[Gearhead_42]

1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

 

The TSX and TL-S are similar to engines on the VPI list, right?  Just a Honda K24.  (Like in the Odyssey, Element, Accord, and CR-V) Just the numbers after are different.  Isnt that the same issue here?

 

K24 A2 (swapped in - 200 HP) Versus K24 A1 or A8 (the ones the US got, 160-180 HP).

 

Point being they brought engine "swapped in from a 2012 Tunaslapper Type R" on the paperwork, Tunaslapper Type R is not in the VPI list, and while the engine may be quite similar to the 2009 Tunaslapper LS that is on the list, they didn't submit it for review and approval.

 

This is one of those rare cases where asking forgiveness rather than permission is NOT the way to go...

[JDChristianson]

54 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Gobbledegook

I am absolutely against allowing Gobbledegook.   

[Xph]

On 11/14/2016 at 10:22 AM, Bill Strong said:

asking him now... 

 

he called me...

 

 

Stock N/A engine... add a turbo, supercharger, twincharger to the stock N/A engine = take the 100 point forced induction hit.

 

Swap. Stock N/A engine, swapped for a forced induction engine. Only concerned about the HP increase. 

 Example. Skoda 1600cc 4 cylinder 65hp. Swap in a 150hp v6. swap fee plus HP increase fee. Or... 200hp turbo 4-cylinder, swapped for 200hp V6 N/A. zero hp increase = 0-point fee. 50 point swap fee.

 

JDM / Euro / Anywhere else OUTSIDE USA DM -

If the engine is the same displacement and hp and a USA DM engine it is allowed.

example. -

USDM 1985 Toyota MR2 - 4age with L-Jetronic 112hp

 rest of world 1985 Toyota MR2- 4age with D-jetronic 123hp. 

Long block is the same, only difference is that the USDM engine was equipped with different cleaner injection system, cat converters and used unleaded fuel. Whereas the Rest of world car used older injection, leaded fuel and no cats.

Long blocks are the same. allowed.

 

If the long blocks are not offered in the USA and the HP difference is significant, then they won't be allowed.

 

remember, I am just the messenger. all responses to Mike Chisek or Phil please.

 

 

The him in this post was Mike Chisek...

 

 

[Xph]

Clarification is still desirable, since this note is of course not in the actual rule book...  also with regards to which HP rating you need to claim.

[Xph]

55 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

 

The TSX and TL-S are similar to engines on the VPI list, right?  Just a Honda K24.  (Like in the Odyssey, Element, Accord, and CR-V) Just the numbers after are different.  Isnt that the same issue here?  Both the CRV and the Accord K24 are listed in the VPI.

 

K24 A2 (swapped in - 200 HP) Versus K24 A1 or A8 (the ones the US got, 160-166 HP).

 

Honda people will know based on the head casting and such, which have cast oil pans, coolers, lost motion assemblies, etc.. which motor you used...  Yes JDM motors have less numbers on the main block stamp (all being K24a or ZC ect)  so you need to know more about RAA vs RBB and maybe RBB-4 vs RBB-6  but I am sure if you expect to be on the podium you would need to have those details in order... 

 

While not always trivial to find, its fairly well documented on the internet for those with a smartphone and google...

[wvumtnbkr]

I think you guys missed my point....

 

I was saying that you CAN NOT do this. 

 

I think the OP's situation is exactly the same as the Fit teams situation.  They are trying to swap in an engine from a car that is not on the VPI list.  Unless an integra SiR or Civic SiR is on the list (which it isn't).

 

 

I agree that emailing Phil is the correct thing to do. 

 

 

 

also, in the above example quoting Bill Strong, that is a 11hp difference on an engine only making 112hp.  That, to me, implies either 11 hp or 10% difference is okay and it should be considered the same engine.

 

Clarification definitely needed for this question!

[Bill Strong]

the engines were essentially the same. The HP difference was the ECU due to the USA requiring cleaner-running compromised engines whereas the rest of the world did not care about clear skies and clean rivers. 

 

Oh, how times have changed.

[wvumtnbkr]

Can we get a clarification, Mr. Strong?

[Xph]

32 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

the engines were essentially the same. The HP difference was the ECU due to the USA requiring cleaner-running compromised engines whereas the rest of the world did not care about clear skies and clean rivers. 

 

Oh, how times have changed.

 

 

Right, my understanding was that JDM is fine as long as its similar...  you just claim the higher HP and then if its a few tenths or something on compression its no big deal...  but like everyone else, I am concerned that this never made it in to the rules.

 

I am definitely in the camp that a 40K mile honda motor will last longer if I never touch it, than one I just "rebuilt"...  that said, try to find a 40K mile motor for a 25 year old car...  it would be worth more than all of our CRX chassis combined.

[csadn]

4 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I am absolutely against allowing Gobbledegook.   

Indeed.

 

 

[waits to see who gets this reference]

[Evilwheel]

Looks like a Puffenstuff character ?

[djsteviec]

I thought that swapping a JDM for your engine only matters if you are trying to do an even swap, with no points?

 

If you are taking the HP/ points add on the swap and points for the conversion- it does not matter if the engine was produced and used in a car never made in the US.

 

This is how I have always understood it. Only the car needs to be a US based production car.

[Kentite]

Rule 4.5.5 Engine being swapped in must come from a vehicle on the VPI table.

 

If it is clearly stated in the rule book there should be no emails necessary.

 

Weren’t all the “I emailed Phil and he said it is OK” waivers considered null and void sometime last season?

[Xph]

Just now, Kentite said:

Rule 4.5.5 Engine being swapped in must come from a vehicle on the VPI list.

 

If it is clearly stated in the rule book there should be no emails necessary.

 

Weren’t all the “I emailed Phil and he said it is OK” waivers considered null and void sometime last season?

 

nope its never that simple...  in fact it has always been "whatever phil says"  IE the turbo rule is not spelled out in the rulebook that the turbo must come from a vehicle on the VPI list, however that is how it is "Applied" by tech...   the tech sheets call out a Fixed point value of 10 points for each roll cage tube over the max, its not in the rules, but thats how tech applies the rule...   tech allows non OE axles if you swap your diff, or if you swap a "transaxle"... again not in the rules...   There have been mixed reports of people being charged for "airdam" material after claiming the 10 point value for a "splitter"...

 

What really matters is what tech says when you tech your car, and then again, what tech says if you make the podium and are protested...  at the end of the day it all comes down to tech...   if you have any question, you email tech (either phil or your regional tech) and get a "ruling"...  and you keep that with you... doesnt mean they wont change their mind, but its as close as you can get.

 

Also note, that in the thread I linked, Mike C apparently made a call on how the swap formula would work, and how it would allow for JDM engines...   although the only documentation was through Bill, so the matter is far from settled. 

 

 

[Kentite]

I thought one of things that was supposed to happen around the time of 2017 rule book release was for tech to be on the same page from region to region. I understand that this is extremely difficult, maybe even impossible, to achieve 100% of the time.

Maybe there needs to be a record of all “rulings” that are approved via email for further review at the end of each season or the BOD meeting. 

Either way when it comes to a rule that is clearly stated, and in my opinion leaves little room for interpretation, there shouldn’t be any variance without an amendment to the rule book that is available to all memeners.

[BDG]