takjak2 Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 In the BoD nomination discussions and elsewhere we have seen proposals for restricting engines to using commonly available "street" fuel. 93 Octane or similar. It makes sense as a way to disincentivize heavy engine modifications or cheating. The question then is how to enforce it? Simply have the protesting team pay for, and Chumpcar provide, 10 or 15 gallons of 93. Tell the team they must run it at their next pit stop. Observe the fill for no octane boosters. If they're not pinging in an hour then they weren't cheating hard enough to matter. Proposed rule language: 8.2.11 All fuel must be commonly available unleaded fuel legal for street use. 8.2.11.1 Rotary powered cars may be permitted oiling additives that do not measurably effect octane levels. No other additives are permitted. 8.2.11.2 At its discretion or if provided for by protest, Chumpcar may require a team to use fuel provided to them prior to a pit stop under observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 No. It still smells like people are saying "they are faster, so they must be cheating". If a team wants to spend CRAZY money on race fuel for a chumpcar trophy made out of broken car parts, let them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takjak2 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 27 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: If a team wants to spend CRAZY money on race fuel for a chumpcar trophy made out of broken car parts, let them. The point is to have a mechanism in the rules to discourage it. We do NOT want the policy to be "let them spend". If you decide not to enforce it, that's another matter entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvumtnbkr Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, takjak2 said: The point is to have a mechanism in the rules to discourage it. We do NOT want the policy to be "let them spend". If you decide not to enforce it, that's another matter entirely. My point is... Why? Let them. Race gas is not a benefit. If you want to eliminate race gas, eliminate the reason people need to run race gas. Anybody ever won a race while using race gas? It just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewheelerZ Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Its not really about them spending on the fuel, its about them spending on parts that cant be seen or enforced. A fuel rule is a fairly simple way to enforce or discourage hiding internal stuff that would necessitate race fuel. Seriously, if someone shows up running race fuel there are only a couple of different scenarios, the two main ones I can think of are: a) they are insane and stinking rich and b)) they are cheating. In both cases, Im not too fussed about offending them. I agree though, there haven't been many cars running race fuel have there? It may be a problem that doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 You cannot use "commonly available" in the language. What is common?? It has to be black and white. There has to be an octane limit. put a # on it (93) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takjak2 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Snake said: You cannot use "commonly available" in the language. What is common?? It has to be black and white. There has to be an octane limit. put a # on it (93) Sure you can. Commonly available, street legal, no additives. It doesn't need a definition because the enforcement mechanism proposed here is what caps the motor. Since it's not reasonable to actually test teams' fuel to see if it's 93. If the track offers unleaded 110 teams would be allowed to run it. But their engine needs to survive when Chumpcar hands them a bucket of 93. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said: My point is... Why? Let them. Race gas is not a benefit. If you want to eliminate race gas, eliminate the reason people need to run race gas. Anybody ever won a race while using race gas? It just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Completely missing the point of the rule. Race gas might not be a benefit to a stock or near stock motor but the cheaty ones, there's a benefit to it. Why would they spend TRIPLE the amount of $ otherwise? Eliminating race gas helps to eliminate cheaty motors of which there are. Everyone knows one or 2, lets not kid ourselves. Some people are mixing and some have the $$$ to just spend $10/gal and say f it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Just now, takjak2 said: Sure you can. Commonly available, street legal, no additives. It doesn't need a definition because the enforcement mechanism proposed here is what caps the motor. Since it's not reasonable to actually test teams' fuel to see if it's 93. If the track offers unleaded 110 teams would be allowed to run it. But their engine needs to survive when Chumpcar hands them a bucket of 93. Completely disagree. It is reasonable to test and easily done. IF a rule goes into place, I don't think a lot of testing will actually be required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takjak2 Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Snake said: Completely disagree. It is reasonable to test and easily done. http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html "Portable Octane Analyzers (testing equipment) are available, but their use by the public is limited due to the high cost, typically between $8,000 and $14,000." Chumpcar didn't want to spend $1000 for a set of scales. If you have a better enforcement mechanism let's hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eman911 Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Regulate the parts and modifications that necessitate the race fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Would a knock sensor pull enough timing so they could survive say 1.5 hours on 93? If say you had a knock sensor, not like I have one. Could an OBD II computer compensate enough to still run decently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig71188 Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 A few observations: 1) there are ways to add compression that will not be readily detectable in a typical teardown situation 2) Requiring 93 octane is a means to "enforce" rules on internal parts/construction techniques 3) OBDII may be able to pull enough timing/add enough fuel to compensate for lower octane 4) Motors running too little octane may not "ping" (at least not at an audible level) As this is budget racing, I would hate to see folks feeling they need to build motors requiring 100+ octane race gas to be competitive. Left to their own devices there is always someone who will spend cubic dollars to get a trophy. (look up Level5 Motorsports and the SCCA D Sports racer they built to win in SCCA "amateur racing"). I don't have the easy answer, but I do agree some sort of "deterrent" to this type of cost and speed creep is worthy if discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 2 hours ago, takjak2 said: http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html "Portable Octane Analyzers (testing equipment) are available, but their use by the public is limited due to the high cost, typically between $8,000 and $14,000." Chumpcar didn't want to spend $1000 for a set of scales. If you have a better enforcement mechanism let's hear it. I've already emailed 3 different cheaper options to Mike. He asked after I submitted my petition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAMR2 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Question: Are there teams out there running race fuel that are dominating the podiums? Or is everyone trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist? That's how you end up with 100-page rulebooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilwheel Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 101 if they add a fuel rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I don't agree with letting Chumpcar blow up somebodies engine to prove they are running race gas. I'm sure the threat of testing a fuel sample would be enough to dissuade teams from trying. And it doesn't matter if cars aren't winning with race gas. Turbo cars don't seem to be dominating in Chump and there are pretty restrictive rules for turbos. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhr650 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 1 hour ago, LAMR2 said: Question: Are there teams out there running race fuel that are dominating the podiums? Or is everyone trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist? That's how you end up with 100-page rulebooks. One team wins pretty often and runs race fuel. Last time we raced them we were consistently faster on regular 93 octane with outboard premix oil... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Yes, and a race fuel car was on the podium at Sebring as well. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack_280 Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 IMHO race fuel should not be allowed. At worst it's a waste of money. At worst it's necessary due to cheaty motor builds. Either way it's not something within the spirit of the series. (See how there's no 'at best'?) I have no idea how to enforce it, other than it's pretty obvious when a team is running race fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Race fuel or not, how much hp does it add? Just the race fuel, not all the cheaty bits that require it. If a team has the bits requiring race fuel, have they claimed the cams/pistons/heads in the first place? If they are not claiming them then how is making them downgrade to premium going to make them start claiming those less zooty but still non-OE bits requiring the 93 octane? It is not. A No Race Fuel rule is not going to solve anything, nor make the cheaty teams more honest, just less super-cheaty. Perhaps just upper-cheaty? Saying race fuel is too expensive is akin to saying no expensive motorhomes allowed, no double stacker haulers, no two car enclosed trailers... because that is also all too expensive and not allowed in the series. This part of the argument above I do not get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 In an naturally aspirated combo, I would agree that race fuel is a modest increase over pump gas. But it's an advantage in a series (like others) where everybody looks for an advantage. We can't have a free oil cooler for longevity but running race gas to quell detonation and allow more timing, more compression and (maybe) more boost is okay? S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Exactly, more compression - how do you get more compression? Are the bits to get more compression being claimed? If they are not being claimed now, will excluding race gas make them get claimed? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 No, they won't be claimed because they won't be there. You can't run 12:1 (or more) compression on pump gas and make more power than 10:1 compression on pump gas. So the option for those teams will be to build a combo that's within what can be ran on pump gas. Can they still put cheaty poop in the engine? Sure...just not as cheaty. And we'll all be restricted to the same octane limitation. Would it be fair to let a team run on Trofeo R's, or R888's or R1's? So why is it okay to let them run on race gas? S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Exactly, not as cheaty so it doesn't really accomplish anything. The root of the problem is how to check for the cheaty bits. Check for those and the race gas problem goes away too. Pull some rocker covers when it is easy, check stroke when it is easy... when a Datsun E31 head is shaved there is no metal below the "E31" casting, the E is right at the bottom of the head material., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.