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Smartest CIVIC swap??


turbogrill
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CIVIC engine swaps and chumpcar rules seems like a Phd thesis.

 

Someone who knows what the smartest swap is within the realm of Chumpcar rules?

 

Seems like a D15 Frankenstein/Minime could be a good bet? That way the only added points is for the cylinder head.

 

CRX has 150pts and look awesome, so for a total of 250 pts you could have a pretty feisty CRX?

 

Or swap in a B18 into the CRX and do a B18 frankenstein. B18 swap  gives you ~200 pts, then an additional 100pts for the cylinder head. 

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9 hours ago, turbogrill said:

CIVIC engine swaps and chumpcar rules seems like a Phd thesis.

 

Someone who knows what the smartest swap is within the realm of Chumpcar rules?

 

Seems like a D15 Frankenstein/Minime could be a good bet? That way the only added points is for the cylinder head.

 

CRX has 150pts and look awesome, so for a total of 250 pts you could have a pretty feisty CRX?

 

Or swap in a B18 into the CRX and do a B18 frankenstein. B18 swap  gives you ~200 pts, then an additional 100pts for the cylinder head. 

CRX vs Civic and the particular year might make things a little different.  My 2 cents... if we had known better and didn't already have back-up B18B parts, I would do a K24 in our '97 EX.  Works with the new swap math and it actually worked with the old swap math last year, too.  At the time we swapped, B18B was the norm and we just wanted to finish a race, so I'm not terribly disappointed in our decision.

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10 hours ago, turbogrill said:

1) CIVIC engine swaps and chumpcar rules seems like a Phd thesis.

2) Someone who knows what the smartest swap is within the realm of Chumpcar rules?

3) Seems like a D15 Frankenstein/Minime could be a good bet? That way the only added points is for the cylinder head.

4) CRX has 150pts and look awesome, so for a total of 250 pts you could have a pretty feisty CRX?

5) Or swap in a B18 into the CRX and do a B18 frankenstein. B18 swap  gives you ~200 pts, then an additional 100pts for the cylinder head. 

 

1) Yes, if you are unfamiliar with the platform I can completely see why they seem so complicated. I am familiar and they can still be a bit confusing. 

2) There is no "smartest", some swaps are better than others in different ways.  Cheapest bang for the buck? Drop in a JDM B20 without touching it for a 92-00 civic. 

3) This will be too slow to compete for much, without boost a D series is not enough ooompf IMO. 

4) Only the D15 CRX is 150 points, and that car is not competitive. You have to start with the 200 point version if you want to swap (which is a must to be competitive). 

5) You could do that, or swap a B vtec motor without going frankenstein. Any of these will make a CRX very competitive. 

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1 hour ago, karman1970 said:

You aren't giving up on the Z-car are you, @turbogrill?

 

haha not yet. I have a 1000000000hp engine that I am trying to put together. Was supposed to happen 2 races ago...

 

I always liked the CRX, look cool. The only problem is that crx/civic sounds awful, every time they are close to me I want to push them off the track.

 

1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

1) Yes, if you are unfamiliar with the platform I can completely see why they seem so complicated. I am familiar and they can still be a bit confusing. 

2) There is no "smartest", some swaps are better than others in different ways.  Cheapest bang for the buck? Drop in a JDM B20 without touching it for a 92-00 civic. 

3) This will be too slow to compete for much, without boost a D series is not enough ooompf IMO. 

4) Only the D15 CRX is 150 points, and that car is not competitive. You have to start with the 200 point version if you want to swap (which is a must to be competitive). 

5) You could do that, or swap a B vtec motor without going frankenstein. Any of these will make a CRX very competitive. 

 

2.  smartest  = "What makes you smoke the most BMWs"

2,3,4: Hmm..so I guess all the fasts civics are mostly B18s or something else

5. Do you need VTEC for chump? Won't a non-VTEC with a cam be same performance as a VTEC? Or are heads much better on VTEC. (I really don't know anything about this platform...)

 

2 hours ago, karman1970 said:

CRX vs Civic and the particular year might make things a little different.  My 2 cents... if we had known better and didn't already have back-up B18B parts, I would do a K24 in our '97 EX.  Works with the new swap math and it actually worked with the old swap math last year, too.  At the time we swapped, B18B was the norm and we just wanted to finish a race, so I'm not terribly disappointed in our decision.

 

How hard is the K24 swap? Seems like all the other swaps are doable for most people?

 

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3 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

5. Do you need VTEC for chump? Won't a non-VTEC with a cam be same performance as a VTEC? Or are heads much better on VTEC. (I really don't know anything about this platform...)

 

don't NEED v-tec but for what it would cost to fart around with a non v-tec motor to make the same power difference RELIABLY - v-tec would be the better route...if you are comparing apples to apples...as in b18b to b18c...speaking for myself, as soon as you (well us when we tried) start to re-engineer Mr. Honda's factory specs/internals -reliability can go right out the window...and fuel mileage would probably be better with a stock v-tec and chipped ecu than some cam/internals set-up...we have always found the b18 non v-tec to be a good choice but with the current (and ever increasing) arms race you will fade into the distance quickly.

3 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

 

How hard is the K24 swap? Seems like all the other swaps are doable for most people?

 

k-swap is down to a 'package deal' these days...common place...biggest difference is motor sits on the right instead of the left so everything is backwards...you can get a mount kit off the shelf and a k-tune management system and some elbow grease and off you go...pick the right one....acura tsx with 6 speed is a good one for sure...whereas a honda element will probably be a tad disappointing in comparison....always easier if you get a complete donor car...my thoughts anyway

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15 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

2.  smartest  = "What makes you smoke the most BMWs"

2,3,4: Hmm..so I guess all the fasts civics are mostly B18s or something else

5. Do you need VTEC for chump? Won't a non-VTEC with a cam be same performance as a VTEC? Or are heads much better on VTEC. (I really don't know anything about this platform...)

 

How hard is the K24 swap? Seems like all the other swaps are doable for most people?

 


2) Smoke them with actual smoke? D16 ..... :) when it throws the rod it smokes the entire track. 

2,3,4: Lots of them are B18s, although some B16s, some B20s, Some K series, Some H series, and Some F series too

5) The 2016 east coast chumpion was a B18 non - vtec car. It didn't have the fastest times of the race, but it was fast enough. 

 

K is harder than B to swap a civic, but pretty darn easy since it is getting so popular these days. 
 

Just now, curtwill said:

 

don't NEED v-tec but for what it would cost to fart around with a non v-tec motor to make the same power difference RELIABLY - v-tec would be the better route...if you are comparing apples to apples...as in b18b to b18c...speaking for myself, as soon as you (well us when we tried) start to re-engineer Mr. Honda's factory specs/internals -reliability can go right out the window...and fuel mileage would probably be better with a stock v-tec and chipped ecu than some cam/internals set-up...we have always found the b18 non v-tec to be a good choice but with the current (and ever increasing) arms race you will fade into the distance quickly.
 

k-swap is down to a 'package deal' these days...common place...biggest difference is motor sits on the right instead of the left so everything is backwards...you can get a mount kit off the shelf and a k-tune management system and some elbow grease and off you go...pick the right one....acura tsx with 6 speed is a good one for sure...whereas a honda element will probably be a tad disappointing in comparison....always easier if you get a complete donor car...my thoughts anyway

 

Well said. 

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So you can supercharge or turbo your D15 / D16...   we tried a supercharger, thing was a stove after 20 minutes, by the time we upped the boost to make the power we wanted, we needed to run e85...  which just makes the platform non viable..  no good intercooler options for the supercharger, so maybe a turbo would have more success...  but being limited to turbos off the VPI list will require engineering...

 

The B20 with a cable trans is a very cost effective swap, odb1 stuff is cheap, it will be down a little on total grunt for horsepower tracks but you can even find chassis with a b series swap already, and swap for the b series motor you want...  as long as JDM are allowed you have a cheap steady source of junkyard motors.

 

this will be great at smaller tracks like gingerman, but still lacking potentially on large tracks like Road America, alhtough if you can manage to keep it on course for full stints, you can still finish well...   you are essentially running a slightly more powerful, but less handling miata..   at this point its all about fuel.

 

We decided to K swap..  adds quite a bit of cost to the EF, mostly with the ECU, wiring and fuel changes which are all outside the swap costs, but it gives you supercharger torque, plenty of junk yard motors, although the K's you want are starting to get more attractive as JDM.  We were planning to use a CRV K24A1...    the power should be similar to the B20 but you get a bit from coil on plug, and because K you get the header in your 1500$ (stock header wont ever fit)

 

if we cant get enough power out of that motor, we will add a low boost M90 blower from a pontiac..  K motors spin the "right way" so its much easier to source a supercharger, a few lbs of boost for 100 points will give the chassis more power than the tank can handle.

 

Because the tank size is limited in chump, its all about maximizing power to weight...   find the most efficient power you can make and how much you can make for 2 hours at a time on your fuel load, and then start cutting...  no limit on chump lightness, and as long as you dont make the chassis too floppy, the lightness will make all your components last longer, and make you faster... 

 

Based on the central chumpionship the CRX is indeed a viable platform.

 

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Just now, Xph said:

So you can supercharge or turbo your D15 / D16...   we tried a supercharger, thing was a stove after 20 minutes, by the time we upped the boost to make the power we wanted, we needed to run e85...  which just makes the platform non viable..  no good intercooler options for the supercharger, so maybe a turbo would have more success...  but being limited to turbos off the VPI list will require engineering...

16HSHK9l0wBMZRquc-9D7hd4CH85hhrVV0gCGngu

 

 

D16Z6 - 1990 Mitsubishi eclipse turbo and intercooler

Massive oil cooler

Exhaust manifold made from square stock by Paul Kruse @Slugworks Paul
Tuned with free Crome 

This was the best engine combo I have ever run, by far. We blew one head gasket, pulled like 2* of timing for the next race and the engine ran flawless until Condren banned it. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, red0 said:

16HSHK9l0wBMZRquc-9D7hd4CH85hhrVV0gCGngu

 

 

D16Z6 - 1990 Mitsubishi eclipse turbo and intercooler

Massive oil cooler

Exhaust manifold made from square stock by Paul Kruse @Slugworks Paul
Tuned with free Crome 

This was the best engine combo I have ever run, by far. We blew one head gasket, pulled like 2* of timing for the next race and the engine ran flawless until Condren banned it. 

 

 

 

Right and its still not points productive...  you take the 50 point swap hit, 100 for the turbo, 25 for the intercooler and 20 for the oil-cooler;  the only way to really do this on the current rules would be to do the D15 or a stock D16...   but to loose the swap points, you have to run the stock motor...  its pretty hard to find clean D16A6's to thrash...  you would end up rebuilding them, and having way to much money into it (in my opinion)...   but still your only at 395 for the si chassis with the above, so far from banned.

 

and on the upside, you can actually tune it and swap injectors now for zero points.

 

I wonder how it would fare against the current fleet with these new rules...

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14 minutes ago, Xph said:

 

Right and its still not points productive...  you take the 50 point swap hit, 100 for the turbo, 25 for the intercooler and 20 for the oil-cooler;  the only way to really do this on the current rules would be to do the D15 or a stock D16...   but to loose the swap points, you have to run the stock motor...  its pretty hard to find clean D16A6's to thrash...  you would end up rebuilding them, and having way to much money into it (in my opinion)...   but still your only at 395 for the si chassis with the above, so far from banned.

 

and on the upside, you can actually tune it and swap injectors now for zero points.

 

I wonder how it would fare against the current fleet with these new rules...

 

Oh, the above setup is not banned at all anymore.

yea, I was running stock injectors but was paying 75 points for crome. I could almost certainly have made more power with some bigger injectors. 

It would fare well, it ran 2:53 back in 2014. 

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I do think boost is a viable power answer, at 100 points / 125 with intercooler, its probably the best option other than swap or header...  and for cars not fuel limited, I would think it a good option, although I am not seeing too much of it..  on the honda, because you are going to bump right up against the limits of the 13.9 gallon cell and swirlpot.  I think its a pretty tough proposition...  it is nice and light though.

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Kinda tempted to throw some Crower cams (with the requisite valve springs and retainers) at our B18B. GSR swap is expensive, K swap is expensive. Power difference shouldn't be THAT much lower with a cammed B18B and think reliability should remain good if we stick at OEM fuel cut?

 

Hmm... decisions.

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2 hours ago, rod rammage said:

We have a EF CRX si with the stock d series. I happen to have a EG chassis with a B20Z /GSR transmission with a header. Any idea  if the axles etc will swap this into the EF chassis? I figured the B20z with its torque might be a viable upgrade? Any thoughts?

I think the only thing you will need to deal with are the motor mounts on the left and right aprons...different style than the eg/dc integra chassis...cheap e-bay mount kit will solve it..axles are the same-we use 99 civic si (sir in Canada) axles in our eg if we run out of integra stuff

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I think you should just give me the CR-X chassis as a spare, so it won't cause you so much trouble. :)  LOL

 

In my Gen1 CR-X Si, we certainly pass plenty of E30, and depending on track and probably driver E36! Passed and E46 M3 at Palmer!! :) But, that was definitely the driver- or lack of one. :lol:  And it only has an SOHC D series!

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17 hours ago, djsteviec said:

I think you should just give me the CR-X chassis as a spare, so it won't cause you so much trouble. :)  LOL

 

In my Gen1 CR-X Si, we certainly pass plenty of E30, and depending on track and probably driver E36! Passed and E46 M3 at Palmer!! :) But, that was definitely the driver- or lack of one. :lol:  And it only has an SOHC D series!

 

This did not match our experience...  maybe in F Prod scca trim with race gas...   but unless its a very tight, technical course, the CRX and Civic stock powerplants are insufficient.

 

What the CRX does well in stock form, is stay on the track...  you can do some modest mods to get some power out of the D series, our wallet never allowed us to explore race gas...  and once you get to maybe 140hp or so (again very track dependent), you can have a decent showing...  one of those 38th fastest cars but finished 4th..  where you will do most of your passing is while your competitors are in the pits.

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I cant believe not that many people run the B16. For what it lacks in hp, makes up for it in fuel ecomony. We easily made enough power to run with the big boys and were great on fuel. Seems like everyone is trying to squeeze all the hp that they can within the rules. Also, our engine now has almost 7-8k of race miles on it now and is still kickin some booty. All factory parts and even original 130k or so rod bearings. The point I am trying to make is, dont worry too much about hp, make it last an entire race. You cant win unless you finish.

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5 hours ago, Xph said:

 

This did not match our experience...  maybe in F Prod scca trim with race gas...   but unless its a very tight, technical course, the CRX and Civic stock powerplants are insufficient.

 

What the CRX does well in stock form, is stay on the track...  you can do some modest mods to get some power out of the D series, our wallet never allowed us to explore race gas...  and once you get to maybe 140hp or so (again very track dependent), you can have a decent showing...  one of those 38th fastest cars but finished 4th..  where you will do most of your passing is while your competitors are in the pits.

130HP at the crank, when new. 1917lbs with driver and fuel!  We get the job done. We run 93. We pass in the pits, and corners. Even took an E30 at The Glen this year, going down the front straight! :)

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2 hours ago, JoeHeitzRules said:

Seems like everyone is trying to squeeze all the hp that they can within the rules.

 

Not us, plenty of easy hp mods for our engine and we have points to spare but we are already short on fuel. More hp chews more fuel.

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