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Bill Strong

New VPi table is out - 1803 - 12/22/2017

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Cool!

 

I wondered if somebody would run one.  I thought it was difficult to run 1 due to it being a non us engine.

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We ran 2x 2.2 liter 1991 Toyota MR2s. 2010 -2013
Mod Squad Racing.

Screen Shot 2018-01-24 at 10.54.52 PM.png

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7 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Cool!

 

I wondered if somebody would run one.  I thought it was difficult to run 1 due to it being a non us engine.

Takes a number of extra emails worth of facts, figures, and logical arguments.  Plus, I don't do well enough for anyone to really care 😉

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2 hours ago, Gearhead_42 said:

Takes a number of extra emails worth of facts, figures, and logical arguments.

But who has time for that....

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11 hours ago, Gearhead_42 said:

Mine's an SR. C class, full swap math applied, including the trans hit. Even stock ecu and injectors at the moment. I'm over 500 just to keep my oil and intercooler. Not even an aftermarket radiator, which is painful.

wait wait wait

 

You have an approved SR20 S13 in chump?

 

I thought this was always "forbidden fruit" since its not on the VPI list

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

wait wait wait

 

You have an approved SR20 S13 in chump?

 

I thought this was always "forbidden fruit" since its not on the VPI list

...annnnnd now I'm banned. 

 

I would not be at all surprised to be protested in the unlikely event that I ever podiumed... BUT!

 

refer to my followup post... it was first approved prior to VPI and the new swap math... and required very clear communication with the boss guys to get approval even then.  When the Club went to the horsepower based swaps, I re-applied the math to the swap using all the new rules.  

 

Want the ridiculously bendy but apparently legal version?  OK, take a Sentra SR20 (on the VPI list) for 50 points, add a 100 point turbo, a 25 point intercooler, all the free stuff you get with the swap (it's "necessary" ya'll) and you're right where I run using the horsepower math.   

Edited by Gearhead_42
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14 hours ago, enginerd said:

That’s the red one, right? Based on their speed at Autobahn this year, I would guess they are not swapped.

 

Ha!  Here is a great example of how far off everyone's perspective is on a stock MR2.  You don't think it is swapped, but they actually have 62 HP more than stock!!!

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Due to the commonality and ease of swapping engines, it almost sounds like the MR2 series needs to be treated like the BMW/Honda cars on the VPI list.  Chassis + engine gives a VPI.  Take the engine swap math out of it.

 

That'll give the MR2s choosing to keep stock non-turbo 4 cyl down at a point level they can (try) to make it fast other ways, and give the various v6 / turbo swaps a more appropriate starting point without muddying things up.

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6 minutes ago, cshay said:

 

Ha!  Here is a great example of how far off everyone's perspective is on a stock MR2.  You don't think it is swapped, but they actually have 62 HP more than stock!!!

so it is swapped?  what engine?   

 

The real discussion to me isn't what any of the cars are stock, so much as what they become under the rules.   A bone stock 1.6 Miata, and I mean bone stock down to the tire size, is a hellabunch slower than a 1.6 Miata that is modified via the rules.   Same with an e30, neon, civic, whatever.   The end product is what matters, at least if there is a true desire to contain speed creep and cost creep.  in my opinion anyhow

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Just now, JDChristianson said:

so it is swapped?  what engine?   

 

The real discussion to me isn't what any of the cars are stock, so much as what they become under the rules.   A bone stock 1.6 Miata, and I mean bone stock down to the tire size, is a hellabunch slower than a 1.6 Miata that is modified via the rules.   Same with an e30, neon, civic, whatever.   The end product is what matters, at least if there is a true desire to contain speed creep and cost creep.  in my opinion anyhow

Yes it is swapped.  I haven't seen anyone from their team publicly share what motor it has, so I don't want to disclose it on their behalf.  If you ask, I would bet they would share.

 

It is the red car from team Asteri.  He is a great guy, president of a major NSX club.  He arranged an event with hundreds of them from around the world to come to Road America.

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6 minutes ago, NigelStu said:

Due to the commonality and ease of swapping engines, it almost sounds like the MR2 series needs to be treated like the BMW/Honda cars on the VPI list.  Chassis + engine gives a VPI.  Take the engine swap math out of it.

 

That'll give the MR2s choosing to keep stock non-turbo 4 cyl down at a point level they can (try) to make it fast other ways, and give the various v6 / turbo swaps a more appropriate starting point without muddying things up.

I believe one of the stated goals of the new swap formula was to not give prescribed or recommended swaps.  With all of this stuff going on, it seems like it would make sense to have values for specified common swaps.  Fox body Mustang with the Explorer engine, 50 pts over stock.  MR2 with one V6, X pts over stock.  MR2 with a more powerful I4, Y pts over stock.  

 

Not sure tech will want that much more work...50 points added to the MR2's VPI seems reasonable.  

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11 minutes ago, jmabarone said:

I believe one of the stated goals of the new swap formula was to not give prescribed or recommended swaps.  With all of this stuff going on, it seems like it would make sense to have values for specified common swaps.  Fox body Mustang with the Explorer engine, 50 pts over stock.  MR2 with one V6, X pts over stock.  MR2 with a more powerful I4, Y pts over stock.  

 

Not sure tech will want that much more work...50 points added to the MR2's VPI seems reasonable.  

There are 4 different motors being used in MR2's right now.  I dont think tech wants to treat them individually either.  It is just variants of two different base engine types.  

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33 minutes ago, jmabarone said:

I believe one of the stated goals of the new swap formula was to not give prescribed or recommended swaps.  With all of this stuff going on, it seems like it would make sense to have values for specified common swaps.  Fox body Mustang with the Explorer engine, 50 pts over stock.  MR2 with one V6, X pts over stock.  MR2 with a more powerful I4, Y pts over stock.  

 

Not sure tech will want that much more work...50 points added to the MR2's VPI seems reasonable.  

 

That is already happening.  The swap formula gives 62 or 72 points or something like that, however if you are going down in hp which you are with the Explorer engine you just add 50 points.

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10 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

That is already happening.  The swap formula gives 62 or 72 points or something like that, however if you are going down in hp which you are with the Explorer engine you just add 50 points.

I get that you can email tech and ask for an overrule in the calculator, but what I am referring to is a prescribed engine swap list.

 

For example:

E30 with M50=500 points

E30 with M52=510

E30 with M54=520

MR2 with 1MZ=450

MR2 with 2GR=520 

Etc.  

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What you all are proposing would expand the rulebook significantly.  I think we went down this rabbit hole with the E36 many years ago, creating special rules for it.  I do not think we want to go the path of separate rules for each variant of each marquee/swap.  The possibilities are endless.  Even picking out the top ten will lead to more and more of these.  .  

Edited by Jer
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I think the underlying issue here when comparing MR2 vs. E30/36 is that the E30 and E36 are proven to perform very well with the stock engines; thus their VPi points are appropriate to maintain parity of non-swapped/swapped cars.   While the MR2 is apparently a terrible dog in stock form that no team considers running as-is due to it's total lack of performance at the current point value; thus a lower starting VPi. Which in this case allows what appears to be excessive points AFTER a swap is accounted for to add all sort of stuff to potentially make the car even faster.  

 

 

I don't see how listing out something like this:

Toyota MR2 W20 (5S-FE) - 200

Toyota MR2 W20 (3S-GTE) - 450

Toyota MR2 W20 (1MZ-fe) - 350

Toyota MR2 W20 (1MZ-fe w/ VVT-i) - 425

Toyota MR2 W20 (3MZ-fe) - 500

Toyota MR2 W20 (2GR-FE) - 600

 

 

Is any different than:

BMW E30 (M10B18) 250

BMW E30 (M20B20) 375

BMW E30 (M20B23) 400

BMW E30 (M20B25) 450

BMW E30 (M20B27) 375

BMW E30 (M40B16) 275

BMW E30 (M42B18) 400

 

or:

BMW E36 (M40B18) 300

BMW E36 (M42B18) 350

BMW E36 (M44B19) 350

BMW E36 (M50B20) 475

BMW E36 (M50B25) 500

BMW E36 (M52B20) 475

BMW E36 (M52B25) 500

BMW E36 (M52B28) 530

 

For all of those BMWs, you have a car with that drive-train, and you have your points.  No extra rules, just specific lines on the VPi.  

 

Yes, I am aware that all of those BMW engines are found within those chassis, vs. the Toyota being from other models, but the concept is the same.  Same chassis with different, easily attainable and basically plug and play installed engine choices.  And just like with an E30 putting a M52 engine in, someone wanting to stick a VQ30 or J32 into an MR2 would then need to use swap formula.

 

 

 

 

I guess another way to do this is to increase the base MR2 by 50~75 pts, and then provide a 50-75 pts break for any team choosing to keep the stock NA 4 cylinder in it.

 

 


 

 

 

 

Edited by NigelStu
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1 hour ago, cshay said:

But they actually have 62 HP more than stock!!!

Either:

1) They do not actually have as much HP as you think they have

2) They aren't pushing the gas pedal all the way to the floor

3) They filled the roll cage tubes with lead (or did something else to make the car far too heavy)

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Either: Combination of the following

1) They do not actually have as much HP as you think they have

2) They aren't pushing the gas pedal all the way to the floor

3) They filled the roll cage tubes with lead (or did something else to make the car far too heavy)

4) Car set-up/prep/tire choise is preventing maximum cornering speed, reducing turn exit speed

5) Driver skill is is preventing maximum cornering speed, reducing turn exit speed

FIFY and added a couple....

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1 hour ago, NigelStu said:

I think the underlying issue here when comparing MR2 vs. E30/36 is that the E30 and E36 are proven to perform very well with the stock engines; thus their VPi points are appropriate to maintain parity of non-swapped/swapped cars.   While the MR2 is apparently a terrible dog in stock form that no team considers running as-is due to it's total lack of performance at the current point value; thus a lower starting VPi. Which in this case allows what appears to be excessive points AFTER a swap is accounted for to add all sort of stuff to potentially make the car even faster.  

 

I don't see how listing out something like this:

Toyota MR2 W20 (5S-FE) - 200

Toyota MR2 W20 (3S-GTE) - 450

Toyota MR2 W20 (1MZ-fe) - 350

Toyota MR2 W20 (1MZ-fe w/ VVT-i) - 425

Toyota MR2 W20 (3MZ-fe) - 500

Toyota MR2 W20 (2GR-FE) - 600

Good point.  Tech could use all the cars that have gone through tech already and list "already approved at this value" swaps, such as the aforementioned Explorer into Mustang swap for 50 points.  

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I don't care to argue about the MR2 value one way or another right now, but I do not like special rules for one car. 

 

Instead of adding all this work, if the board decides a swapped MR2 needs more value and it is commonly accepted knowledge that a non-swapped MR2 cannot be made competitive.......why not just set the base value higher? 

 

Or maybe an easier one would be to put the MR2 turbo as a different line item at 450 points and then just like most other platforms, you have to use the highest valued car of the platform to start swaps. Then you could leave the NA value nice and low. 

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On 1/23/2018 at 5:12 PM, Snake said:

 

PM: We need to think carefully about possible scenarios

Yay Phil! :wub:

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Easiest way to fiddle with a specific car's after-swap value is to change the weight used by the calculator.

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