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Engine Swap


JJordan
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Looking for some interpretation on engine swaps.

 

rule item 4.5.6 requires that "vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation".

     Question is does what does this apply to?

 

Rule item 4.5.7 requires that "all other drivetrain components shall be stock".

     Am I correct in understanding that after a motor swap is done and I want to make another change to the vehicle, IE springs/sway bars I need to calculate those points separately from the motor swap?  In other words this rule does not mean that any car with a swapped motor has to be raced 100% stock outside of the motor swap, correct?

 

What about a platform swap?  Can I change the platform down, then take the points for the engine swap?

     I want to change my 300zx turbo to a non turbo as a platform swap, then do a motor swap to a different motor.  Since the running gear for the turbo/non-turbo are the same it gains me 50 points for a starting location.

 

 

 

 

 

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I would also like to get clarification on how 4.5.6 is to be applied, we have no definition for what a "generation" is. IMHO, it would be easiest for everyone if this happened automatically inside the online swap calculator. 

 

I can fairly confidently answer that 4.5.7 does not limit your ability to further modify your car, but you have to take points for those mods.

 

As far as the turbo/non-turbo question it's been a longstanding interpretation that it doesn't matter what car you start with as long as your "story" matches what you actually have in tech. If someone starting with a non-turbo car brings the same exact car to tech as you they should both get the same value. If there are any turbo-model-only parts on your car then you have to take that value. If you are doing a swap I suspect either car would have to start with the turbo VPI, due to 4.5.6, but I'd like to see that clarified. 

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You use the highest model VPI, for example say I was looking at swapping a 1990 Mustang, the 4 and 6 cylinder are 150 points and the V8 is 200.  Regardless of whether I am swapping a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder car I start with the highest, that being 200 points V8 car in the swap calculator.  Then say I am swapping in an Explorer engine and I end up at 250 points for the swap.  Then anything else I do to the car must be accounted for in the remaining 250 points.

 

Not sure how things are handled when there is a turbo model and whether or not you start with those base points.

Edited by Ron_e
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1 minute ago, JJordan said:

So if you have a car that only has 1 motor for the year you're starting with, rule 4.5.6 really doesn't apply.  Is that correct?

 

 

 

Probably, no secrets here, maybe say what vehicle and swap you are looking at and we can help clarify much better.

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Correct...

 

So I can either muddy the water or help clarify depending on your interpretation...

 

2nd gen rx7 is 86 through 91.  86 through 88 is s4.  89 through 91 is s5.  There is also a turbo version from 87 through 91...

 

When we swapped, we were told to use the standard s4 vpi.  The s5 has a higher value and different engine, rear end and gas tank.  Therefore, they are different enough not to be the same generation according to Mike and Phil.  

 

The turbo is a special model and not comsidered.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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4 hours ago, JJordan said:

rule item 4.5.6 requires that "vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation".

     Question is does what does this apply to?

Rules are best understood when you know the reason behind them... so I'll fill you in

 

A couple years ago, people were racing this car:

Bmw e30.jpg

 

In the correct year ranges it comes with 4 cylinder (103 HP) and 6 cylinder (169 HP) versions.

Currently, those versions are currently valued at 250 and 450 points (I can't remember the point value years back). So what it was theoretically possible to do, was to start with the 4 cylinder (250 pt) car, swap in the 6 cylinder engine, and end up with basically the same car as the 450 point version, but at less than 450 points! In actual practice the typical engine swapped in was the 189 HP engine from a newer generation, but the same principal exists.... by starting with the low power model, you could end up with something better than the high power model at fewer points than the high power model (or fewer points compared to swapping the same engine into each model).

 

4.5.6 and the platform swap rules went into place to prevent this from happening... if you want one of these cars with a swapped engine... you start your counting at 450 points.

Edited by enginerd
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17 hours ago, enginerd said:

Rules are best understood when you know the reason behind them... so I'll fill you in

 

A couple years ago, people were racing this car:

Bmw e30.jpg

 

In the correct year ranges it comes with 4 cylinder (103 HP) and 6 cylinder (169 HP) versions.

Currently, those versions are currently valued at 250 and 450 points (I can't remember the point value years back). So what it was theoretically possible to do, was to start with the 4 cylinder (250 pt) car, swap in the 6 cylinder engine, and end up with basically the same car as the 450 point version, but at less than 450 points! In actual practice the typical engine swapped in was the 189 HP engine from a newer generation, but the same principal exists.... by starting with the low power model, you could end up with something better than the high power model at fewer points than the high power model (or fewer points compared to swapping the same engine into each model).

 

4.5.6 and the platform swap rules went into place to prevent this from happening... if you want one of these cars with a swapped engine... you start your counting at 450 points.

 

I see this rule as only being applied to BMWs. For example if this rule were applied in the same manner to Honda's for instance; the cars with a b20 or k20 swap, aero, coilovers, adjustable control arms would blow the 500 point rule out the the water. Perhaps the wording could be more clear or actually enforced? 

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22 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Correct...

 

So I can either muddy the water or help clarify depending on your interpretation...

 

2nd gen rx7 is 86 through 91.  86 through 88 is s4.  89 through 91 is s5.  There is also a turbo version from 87 through 91...

 

When we swapped, we were told to use the standard s4 vpi.  The s5 has a higher value and different engine, rear end and gas tank.  Therefore, they are different enough not to be the same generation according to Mike and Phil.  

 

The turbo is a special model and not comsidered.

 

But the S4 and S5 are considered different cars in the VPI, so if you start with an S5, you do a platform swap from S5 to S4, take the points for the diff, then do the engine swap?  The engine you were swapping and there I don't know how the gas tank is accounted but it gains you 75 points.

 

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10 minutes ago, BDG said:

So... if I want to swap ANY engine into a 2000 base (275pts) Integra, I have to start with it as a Type R, which is 475pts + min 50 for a swap?

 

Surely I cant be reading that right....

Best to ask tech, but probably not. I'm sure the engine you are wanting to swap in matters to some extent.  If you are going to put something meaner than a Type R motor in one, then maybe so.  I specifically asked the same about our B18B Civic and was told that for swap purposes the Si is considered a different model, separate from the rest of the Civics.

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The gist of that rule is so you can't put a Type R or RSX motor in a base Integra for simply the swap value. I think I saw a suggestion that an exception be added to the rules that if there are multiple trim levels listed and your swap isn't as powerful as the top trim level, you use a lesser value. For whatever reason that was never added.

 

In our case, I asked simply because I didn't want to get stuck with a 140hp econobox valued as either an Si, or worse yet, an Si with a 20hp reduction and a 50pt bump. Seemed pretty absurd. They simply verified my thinking was correct.

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20 hours ago, wd6681 said:

 

I see this rule as only being applied to BMWs. For example if this rule were applied in the same manner to Honda's for instance; the cars with a b20 or k20 swap, aero, coilovers, adjustable control arms would blow the 500 point rule out the the water. Perhaps the wording could be more clear or actually enforced? 

 

Nope, this totally applies to us, we race a CRX, under the old rules we claimed we started with an 88 CRX HF, which was 100 points, and then claimed an engine and trans swap, in this case we swapped a B20 for 75 points (old rules), so we had a 175 point car (same points as the 88 CRX SI under the old rules) but with the B20...

 

New rules, CRX SI is now 200 points, and any swapped CRX's must start with the 200 point value...   our swapped car is now 275 for the same car that was 175 under the old 2015 rules.

 

The up side (if you can call it that) is that we get to use the SI rear disk brakes, and the larger SI front hubs.  since we have to take the SI points anyways.  we still technically have an HF (no sunroof) chassis.

Edited by Xph
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9 hours ago, BDG said:

So... if I want to swap ANY engine into a 2000 base (275pts) Integra, I have to start with it as a Type R, which is 475pts + min 50 for a swap?

 

Surely I cant be reading that right....

No.  The type r is a special model.  Special models are not considered.  No special handshake stuff.

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This still is not applied standard. The rules give the exact example of a E30 318 as the basis of a swap must be considered a 325i. When yet even a 318is has not only a different motor but different transmission, driveshaft, differential. I do not mean to argue against anyones swap formulation because again, the rule has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. Chumpcar opened the can of worms with swaps but asks us to self enforce the rules which everyone interpret differently. 

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

No.  The type r is a special model.  Special models are not considered.  No special handshake stuff.

Fair enough, but what constitutes "special"?

 

The GSR is a special model too, or do we have to use that vpi as a base?

 

If the latter, then I have to start at 400 pts plus 51 pts to swap in a B18C1 for example. 

 

I know the answer is "email tech". How do I know the car Ive got 5mins to look at in impound at the end of a race is legal?

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14 minutes ago, BDG said:

Fair enough, but what constitutes "special"?

 

The GSR is a special model too, or do we have to use that vpi as a base?

 

If the latter, then I have to start at 400 pts plus 51 pts to swap in a B18C1 for example. 

 

I know the answer is "email tech". How do I know the car Ive got 5mins to look at in impound at the end of a race is legal?

You  could just pack up, have a beer, and go to dinner like the rest of us....

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5 minutes ago, BDG said:

Which is what we do for sure. So just toss anything in it, write anything down and call it a day?

Unless you are skunking the field, yes. Most of us are being out performed by a team not a car.  Are there outliers, absolutely, and we all know them when we see them.

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