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BMW Z3 build with swap ?


MR2 Biohazard
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Looking at possible future build and thoughts.

1998 BMW Z3 4cyl

350 points

13.5 gallon tank so 15 gallon fuel cell, if I can fit it. That might be the main issue though, but we can go custom and get 15.5 if needed.

n53b30 swap at 210hp from

Stand alone ecu.

I would hope I could strip it down pretty decent on weight since it is small. Not sure, but it it seems small. Maybe 2200-2300lbs empty with a cage?

You can fit 255/40/17 on all four corners

Make: BMW
Model: Z3 (M44B19)
Year: 1998
MPV: 350
Car Weight: 2728
Original HP: 130
New HP: 210
Points Added to VPi: 74
--->NEW VPI: 424

Springs 40 points - Might be able to find springs that are basically stock or custom made as others have done to be the same coil size as stock.

Wing 10

splitter 10

504 points

Maybe some custom Bilstein shocks for it to match springs

If I can springs at zero maybe a front sway bar so points less than 500

You should be able to get a base car for 3-5K.

 

Thoughts?

What other corners should there be long term?

 

 

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Sounds nice AND not controversial;)

 

 

19 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

13.5 gallon tank so 15 gallon fuel cell, if I can fit it. That might be the main issue though, but we can go custom and get 15.5 if needed

Why short yourself, get a 16 and a displacement block, or does a standard size not fit in provided space?

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5 minutes ago, dogtired said:

Two Generation jump.... 

So what you're saying is someone can build an m10 e30 swap to 5.0 and the value starts at m10 value and not the m20 starting value? Even though the rule states it starts at 325i value?

Explain your comment if not, please.

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My understanding was to get rid of the e30 specific loophole. I am not a BMW guy, yet, but I saw it there were two basic E30's. The 4cyl and 6cyl. If you get a 4cyl and put in the exact same engine as the 6cyl then you are the 6cyl. This swap would not be doing that so that rule I would think would not apply.

 

If it did automatically bring it to 500 in reality is kills the platform and the car overall as I would not see a point in doing it.

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31 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

My understanding was to get rid of the e30 specific loophole. I am not a BMW guy, yet, but I saw it there were two basic E30's. The 4cyl and 6cyl. If you get a 4cyl and put in the exact same engine as the 6cyl then you are the 6cyl. This swap would not be doing that so that rule I would think would not apply.

 

If it did automatically bring it to 500 in reality is kills the platform and the car overall as I would not see a point in doing it.

[ IMO ]

The rule is more than just "if you end up with the same car, you should not have a lower point value". It is also in place because it would be very easy to exceed the performance of the higher-trim car with a swap from the lower trim car.

 

Certain cars have an excellent chassis but a weak engine... so the VPI is very low... so a killer combination would be to take that awesome chassis and swap out the weak link. So, really, it's like... a loophole for all cars which have a weak engine model in an otherwise good chassis.

 

As an example, the BMW e36 platform, the 4 cylinder model is like.. 142 HP, and the 6 cylinder is 189 HP and 500 points.

But if you swap from the low trim to the high trim... and go for, say.. 200 HP (exceeding the power of the higher trim), this is the result:

Make: BMW
Model: E36 (M44B19)
Year: 1996
MPV: 350
Car Weight: 2797
Original HP: 1
New HP: 200
Points Added to VPi: 52
--->NEW VPI: 402

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

[ IMO ]

The rule is more than just "if you end up with the same car, you should not have a lower point value". It is also in place because it would be very easy to exceed the performance of the higher-trim car with a swap from the lower trim car.

 

Certain cars have an excellent chassis but a weak engine... so the VPI is very low... so a killer combination would be to take that awesome chassis and swap out the weak link. So, really, it's like... a loophole for all cars which have a weak engine model in an otherwise good chassis.

 

As an example, the BMW e36 platform, the 4 cylinder model is like.. 142 HP, and the 6 cylinder is 189 HP and 500 points.

But if you swap from the low trim to the high trim... and go for, say.. 200 HP (exceeding the power of the higher trim), this is the result:

Make: BMW
Model: E36 (M44B19)
Year: 1996
MPV: 350
Car Weight: 2797
Original HP: 1
New HP: 200
Points Added to VPi: 52
--->NEW VPI: 402

 I guess I get it, but let me make sure.

 

So 

Car A is 500 points with X engine at 200hp in Chassis ZZ with year ranges YY

Car B is 300 points with T engine at 140hp in chassis ZZ with year ranges YY

 

Then if you do a swap in Car B then you start with 500 points and then add the value of the swap also? So if you used a 190hp engine you would be like 550 points minimum?

 

VPI formula might be this though. Start with Car B, add hp into swap calculator with weight and it goes to 450 points. Is that a no go then?

 

Is that the rule? If so I am thinking there might be some people out there not doing that?

 

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3 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 I guess I get it, but let me make sure.

 

So 

Car A is 500 points with X engine at 200hp in Chassis ZZ with year ranges YY

Car B is 300 points with T engine at 140hp in chassis ZZ with year ranges YY

 

Then if you do a swap in Car B then you start with 500 points and then add the value of the swap also? So if you used a 190hp engine you would be like 550 points minimum?

 

VPI formula might be this though. Start with Car B, add hp into swap calculator with weight and it goes to 450 points. Is that a no go then?

 

Is that the rule? If so I am thinking there might be some people out there not doing that?

 

 

You would just claim car A regardless of whether you start with A or B and add 50 points for the swap.  Since you are decreasing hp it is the base 50 points to swap.

 

Exact example:  4 cyl Mustang is I think 150 points and whatever hp, V8 is 200 points and 225 hp.  Whether I am starting with the 4 or the 8 my swap starts at 200 points plus 50 for the swap.  I swap in the 215 Explorer engine which is a decrease in hp from the V8 225 so my swap is 250 points even if I am starting with the 4 cyl car.

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On the vpi they list two models

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Z3

 

m44b19 years 96-98, so the 1.9L engine making 138hp

 

M52TUB25 years 99-2002, so a 2.5L 168hp ?

 

Looking at edmunds

96 = 1.9 / 138hp

 

97= 1.9/ 138hp

97= 2.8/ 190hp

 

98= 1.9 / 138hp

98= 2.8 / 189hp

 

99 = 2.3/ 170hp

99= 2.8/ 193hp

 

2000 = 2.3 / 170 hp

2000= 2.8 / 193hp

 

2001 = 2.3 / 170 hp

2001= 2.8 / 193hp

 

2002= 2.5/ 184hp

2002= 3.0/ 225hp

 

Is chumpcar saying only the 4cyl 138hp and 170hp cyl then? Not the 2.8L 97 190hp or is that one the 500 point car?

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

You would just claim car A regardless of whether you start with A or B and add 50 points for the swap.  Since you are decreasing hp it is the base 50 points to swap.

 

Exact example:  4 cyl Mustang is I think 150 points and whatever hp, V8 is 200 points and 225 hp.  Whether I am starting with the 4 or the 8 my swap starts at 200 points plus 50 for the swap.  I swap in the 215 Explorer engine which is a decrease in hp from the V8 225 so my swap is 250 points even if I am starting with the 4 cyl car.

WOW. I get it, but for some it does not make sense I would think.

 

If

car A is 500 points and 200hp

car B is 300 points with 140hp

car C is 550 points with 190hp since a swap?

car a/b/c are all the same chassis and year.

 

How does that really make any sense at all? 

 

My understanding was to get rid of the loophole that said start with car B, swap in engine from car A and really make it car A with less points. This really punishes a team that does a swap if there is a chassis and engine combo that has high vpi points. 

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

WOW. I get it, but for some it does not make sense I would think.

 

If

car A is 500 points and 200hp

car B is 300 points with 140hp

car C is 550 points with 190hp since a swap?

car a/b/c are all the same chassis and year.

 

How does that really make any sense at all? 

 

My understanding was to get rid of the loophole that said start with car B, swap in engine from car A and really make it car A with less points. This really punishes a team that does a swap if there is a chassis and engine combo that has high vpi points. 

 

Look at that, I think you may have just discovered the case of the anomalously absent turbo model from the MR2 chassis in the VPI table. :lol:

Edited by Ron_e
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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

WOW. I get it, but for some it does not make sense I would think.

 

If

car A is 500 points and 200hp

car B is 300 points with 140hp

car C is 550 points with 190hp since a swap?

car a/b/c are all the same chassis and year.

 

How does that really make any sense at all? 

 

My understanding was to get rid of the loophole that said start with car B, swap in engine from car A and really make it car A with less points. This really punishes a team that does a swap if there is a chassis and engine combo that has high vpi points. 

Makes more sense than having C end up with 10 less HP than A but only have 350-360 points....

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

WOW. I get it, but for some it does not make sense I would think.

 

If

car A is 500 points and 200hp

car B is 300 points with 140hp

car C is 550 points with 190hp since a swap?

car a/b/c are all the same chassis and year.

 

How does that really make any sense at all? 

 

My understanding was to get rid of the loophole that said start with car B, swap in engine from car A and really make it car A with less points. This really punishes a team that does a swap if there is a chassis and engine combo that has high vpi points. 

If you do a swap engine from A into B and thus make it the same as A, then it's a "platform swap".  Your new value is same as A.  Easy as pie.  (I don't know how tech handles a situation where the trans/rear-end and/or suspension are different between the high- and low-end models and someone chooses to just change engines but leave everything else stock).

 

The loophole was you could take B, use an engine other than from A, and create something as good or BETTER than A, and still be less points than A.  I think everyone agrees that that is some pretty nifty rule lawyering, but not where we want the series to go.  Thus the verbage to try and close said loophole.

 

The only big gray area that hasn't been fully addressed (IMHO) is your case C.  Seems the Mustang guys were told it doesn't matter, you still start with the highest value of that chassis.  In the case of our 97 Civic, I contacted Mike and Phil because I was concerned we would have to start with the Civic Si value and then take a 50-point hit for our swap that is 20hp LESS.  If that were the case, we were going to have to evaluate our options including just converting the whole car to Si-spec.  I was told to use the D16 VTEC value (which our car actually was born as) because they consider the Si a different car - at least in our particular instance.  Frankly, I think that way makes more sense, but I can also see it being something that might need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.  In your case C, I would question why someone would want to swap to 190hp when a 200hp version of that chassis exists.  One would assume it is because that particular configuration is in some way more advantageous than the stock 200hp offering, so that would need to be investigated.

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11 hours ago, dogtired said:

Twitchy handling car, E36 front suspension / E30 rear suspension.

 

Aluminum block motor might be lighter than stock.

 

There has been a Z3 in LeMons SE for a couple of seasons. It's quick.

Bingo.  There are aluminum block M52s that were sold in Z3s.  That's the engine I'd find if I were running a Z3 or a swapped e30.

 

Also, the swapped engine has to come from a car on the list.  

Edited by jmabarone
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4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the 325i as the starting point).

 

You'd start with the 500pt Z3 on the VPI table before you did any motor swaps.  That's my understanding of the rule.  And the reasoning is this... 

 

If E Racing starts with a m20b27 and JAS starts with a m20b25 in our e30s.. and we both swap to some high powered Nissan motor, let's says a VQ35.  Now, you've got two identical cars with different values if you DON'T equalize before the swap.  So, the rule is intended to equalize the chassis across a generation before doing motor swaps.  Basically, eliminating the exact loophole you're trying to exploit.

Edited by riche30
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Just now, riche30 said:

4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the 325i as the starting point).

 

You'd start with the 500pt Z3 on the VPI table before you did any motor swaps.  That's my understanding of the rule.

So I guess what the rule does is eliminate anyone from doing anything other than the 500 point car. If you swap a lower car then it is pointless. So if you have a slower Z3 in this case, the 1.9L, and it is all set up for CC racing CC knows it will be super slow and not competition at 300 points. If you try to get motor to make it faster then you will be 500. Might as well just sell it and do the 500 point engine car as you would be 550 points min and be worse off. You had better pick your car right from the beginning or you will be screwed. No tinkering allowed. I guess that will make a lot of people happy that way.

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12 hours ago, jakks said:

So what you're saying is someone can build an m10 e30 swap to 5.0 and the value starts at m10 value and not the m20 starting value? Even though the rule states it starts at 325i value?

Explain your comment if not, please.

Yeh, I don't understand any of what you just said.... 🤣🤣

 

I was commenting on the motor itself.  Which apparently has little to do with this discussion.

 

FYI, while I really like the E90, mine has burned excessive quantities of oil over it's existence ...

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8 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

You would just claim car A regardless of whether you start with A or B and add 50 points for the swap.  Since you are decreasing hp it is the base 50 points to swap.

 

Exact example:  4 cyl Mustang is I think 150 points and whatever hp, V8 is 200 points and 225 hp.  Whether I am starting with the 4 or the 8 my swap starts at 200 points plus 50 for the swap.  I swap in the 215 Explorer engine which is a decrease in hp from the V8 225 so my swap is 250 points even if I am starting with the 4 cyl car.

There is no exemption for decreasing horsepower, the swap math only uses the final power to weight ratio to calculate the added points.

I don't know how it applies to the Mustang, but it's conceivable that some car could start with power to weight ratio above the "cutoff", swap down in power and still gain more than 50 points.

It doesn't really make sense and I don't think anyone would do it, but that's how I understand the formula.

Edited by ABR-Glen
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