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Turbo chargers on the "list"


frankrehnelt
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Friend is building a turbo Miata. It is currently turbo charged with an eBay special. It works fine around town and track days but it will need to be higher quality for endurance racing. It's my understanding he just can't choose one from the Flyin' Miata website. He needs one used in a car on the VPI list. I'm lazy. Anyone do the research that knows what turbo he can use. Thanks.

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I have a pair of 2g Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo chargers (Garrett T25) turbos that have already been raced in Chump and have proven to do very well. These work really well on 1.6 or 1.8L engines. They are tiny so there is no lag, and they made 160WHP on a Honda 1.6L engine at ~8psi. 

I can bring them to Road Atlanta if you or your friend want to buy them. 

 

Edit. I would only run 1, so the 2nd unit is just a spare. 

Edited by red0
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4 hours ago, frankrehnelt said:

Friend is building a turbo Miata. It is currently turbo charged with an eBay special. It works fine around town and track days but it will need to be higher quality for endurance racing. It's my understanding he just can't choose one from the Flyin' Miata website. He needs one used in a car on the VPI list. I'm lazy. Anyone do the research that knows what turbo he can use. Thanks.

There is no “needs to come from the list” requirement on turbos.

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My understanding when I talked to Phil was that it has to be a turbo from a car on the vpi list. I am not sure why when a t3/t4 turbo is ultra cheap. I think someone said the KKK turbo or T25. Now you can get some pretty custom T25 to the specs you want and would assume that would mean it would be from the list? I would think a SAAB turbo might be a good choice also for a bit higher hp.

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18 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

My understanding when I talked to Phil was that it has to be a turbo from a car on the vpi list. I am not sure why when a t3/t4 turbo is ultra cheap. I think someone said the KKK turbo or T25. Now you can get some pretty custom T25 to the specs you want and would assume that would mean it would be from the list? I would think a SAAB turbo might be a good choice also for a bit higher hp.

When Chumps (years back) we’re proposing rules to bring turbos back after the John Condren knee-jerk turbo ban, the proposals seemed to all contained a ‘must come from the list’ limitation.

 

The current rule does not carry any such requirement. When did you talk to Phil?

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4 minutes ago, enginerd said:

When Chumps (years back) we’re proposing rules to bring turbos back after the John Condren knee-jerk turbo ban, the proposals seemed to all contained a ‘must come from the list’ limitation.

 

The current rule does not carry any such requirement. When did you talk to Phil?

It might have been a bit ago, not sure how long.

 

I have a pair of EFR turbos on my v8 kit car I am building. Those would really be the perfect turbo as it is ultra compact, comes with internal wastegate and BOV and built in boost solenoid for control. It is also very efficient so spool up in really fast and does not heat the air up as much as others.

 

I think that could be a perfect turbo for the BMW z3 1.9 I have been pondering.

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The T3/4  comes on  the Mustang and Merkur. Thats what I used on the Turbojett.  The Gt25 balll bearing  would be my choice . Pretty sure they come onthe Killer SaAbs .

 And yes  with the ECU rules, a small boosted car could dominate. 16gals needed for 1:50 runs @ 160 HP at most roadrace tracks.  

Edited by flyinglizard
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I've always been a fan of Mitsubishi turbos as they are water cooled (most are nowadays), easy to find, and cheap.  Looking through the VPI, these are the ones I'd recommend:

 

2G DSM – Garrett T-25 – 280 CFM

Conquest/Starion – TDO5-12A – 320 CFM

1G DSM – TDO5H-14B – 405 CFM

Evo III – TDO5H-16G – 550 CFM

 

The 14B and T-25 are going to be the easiest to find for not a lot of money.  I wouldn't pay more than $150.  I never noticed the Evo III was on the VPI list before.  The Evo III 16G turbo is capable of 350+ WHP at 21-24 psi.  With that turbo on my 2G DSM at ~21 psi on snow tires I was able to run a 12.6 @ 110 MPH in the 1/4 mile.  You can still buy these turbos new: https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=16296.  They can also be found used for $150-250.

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21 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I've always been a fan of Mitsubishi turbos as they are water cooled (most are nowadays), easy to find, and cheap.  Looking through the VPI, these are the ones I'd recommend:

 

2G DSM – Garrett T-25 – 280 CFM

Conquest/Starion – TDO5-12A – 320 CFM

1G DSM – TDO5H-14B – 405 CFM

Evo III – TDO5H-16G – 550 CFM

 

The 14B and T-25 are going to be the easiest to find for not a lot of money.  I wouldn't pay more than $150.  

 

I was planning to offer the OP $100 for the pair of T25s delivered to Road Atlanta. 

 

Remember that a stock Miata won't like anything north of 200hp and even getting close to 200hp is probably not smart. 

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36 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

I was planning to offer the OP $100 for the pair of T25s delivered to Road Atlanta. 

 

Remember that a stock Miata won't like anything north of 200hp and even getting close to 200hp is probably not smart. 

 

I'd agree with you there. 16G would definitely be too much for a road racing Miata.  T-25 would be a good fit or a 14B if they want to run a less boost for the same power and a little less response.  $100 for two T-25's sounds like a great deal to me.

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I was thinking bmw z3 1.9L and run maybe 7-11psi. Start at 350 points, turbo 100, intercooler 25, wing, splitter and be at 495 points. Fuel limited though at 13.7 gallon stock, but 16 gallon fuel cell with a little bit of a fuel block and surge tank. It might be able to do 1:45min. I would think in the 160-190rwhp range.

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

It might have been a bit ago, not sure how long.

 

I have a pair of EFR turbos on my v8 kit car I am building. Those would really be the perfect turbo as it is ultra compact, comes with internal wastegate and BOV and built in boost solenoid for control. It is also very efficient so spool up in really fast and does not heat the air up as much as others.

 

I think that could be a perfect turbo for the BMW z3 1.9 I have been pondering.

 

I know a great deal about the EFR turbos, they are built about 100ft from my desk. I don’t think an EFR turbo would be good at all for a build based on ChampCar rules, even the smallest one is way too big to get the time to torque that you need for endurance road racing at the power levels we are seeing. One of my drivers, who is our director of engineering, put one of the original prototypes on a Miata and although it made 275 rwhp it was a laggy nightmare to drive. The secret to the SAAB’s is that they have very small turbos well matched to the engines and although they don’t make a huge peak power number they have very good low end torque and response which makes working through traffic much easier.

 

My other reservations with the EFR is that they are based on a commercial diesel bearing system so they are way bigger and heavier than they need to be. They are also way behind where we are nowadays with aero for OEM projects, I am always working on projects 5 years or so from production and on these state of the art programs if you can’t make 250ft/lbs at 1500rpm on a 2L engine don’t even bother showing up…

 

Bonus trivia question, does anyone know what EFR stands for? When we were getting ready to release them we had an employee contest to come up with a name and the winning name was Earth Friendly Racing. Since pretty much nobody except the guy who was judging the contest thought that was a good name and the winner already had his $500 we sort of tweaked it to Engineered For Racing….

 

I too took it that the turbo had to come from a car on the VPI list and I have been investigating cars that I could use for a BW donor turbo. There are a few out there but the Ford EcoBoost stuff we have been working on for the last few years although state of the art is all too new to be on the list, and other stuff hasn’t even been released yet. If I can use anything that I want that opens up a lot more possibilities for me…..

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2 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

It has been confirmed numerous times that the turbo unit has to come a vehicle on the VPI list.

While I thought that as well, the rules say nothing about it.  I was just looking.

 

In fact, the rule says:

 

• transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters

• turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts

 

I included the line above regarding transmissions because it specifically says must come from a vehicle of the VPI list.

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7 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

While I thought that as well, the rules say nothing about it.  I was just looking.

 

In fact, the rule says:

 

• transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters

• turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts

 

I included the line above regarding transmissions because it specifically says must come from a vehicle of the VPI list.

Given some of the recent tech-accepted interpretations, if the main part of the rule specifies "from the list", it applies to subsets of that rule; if only one subset has the requirement, the other lines are exempt.

 

There should be a list of "global" definitions ("stock = OEM specs", "all parts from VPi list", etc.) at the front of the rule book with exceptions noted as desired rather than the haphazard sprinkling that is currently in use.

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12 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

While I thought that as well, the rules say nothing about it.  I was just looking.

 

In fact, the rule says:

 

• transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters

• turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts

 

I included the line above regarding transmissions because it specifically says must come from a vehicle of the VPI list.

 

Been posted many times, and yes I agree it should be put in the rules:

 

HGHarpen17    12

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On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎09 at 1:16 PM, red0 said:

@HGHarpen17

 

Please post back when you get a ruling.

 

 

 

I got a response from Phil, and he indicated that only turbos from VPI list cars will be allowed under the 100 pt listed value.  He said that aftermarket turbos will be assessed on a case-by-case basis, and "probably be classed EC."

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17 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

I got a response from Phil, and he indicated that only turbos from VPI list cars will be allowed under the 100 pt listed value.  He said that aftermarket turbos will be assessed on a case-by-case basis, and "probably be classed EC."

 

 Performance add rules should at least make an attempt at being crisp and definitive, like allow or do not allow aftermarket turbos.

 

Rule bending is so much easier if your starting point is ambiguity.

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1 hour ago, Ron_e said:

 

Been posted many times, and yes I agree it should be put in the rules:

 

HGHarpen17    12

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I got a response from Phil, and he indicated that only turbos from VPI list cars will be allowed under the 100 pt listed value.  He said that aftermarket turbos will be assessed on a case-by-case basis, and "probably be classed EC."

I would seriously challenge that ruling.  The rule, IN THE RULEBOOK, says NON-OE Turbocharger 100 points.  If that is not what the rules mean, the rule needs changed!  If only we had a part fo the forum that Tech could clarify these things and then they could be incorporated into the next edition of the rules.....   HMMM....

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I would seriously challenge that ruling.  The rule, IN THE RULEBOOK, says NON-OE Turbocharger 100 points.  If that is not what the rules mean, the rule needs changed!  If only we had a part fo the forum that Tech could clarify these things and then they could be incorporated into the next edition of the rules.....   HMMM....

 

We've never run into an issue like this before, have we...

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