trigun7469 Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 I sent a email to tech a month ago (I did so around the holidays) So perhaps they are behind, but I am trying to move forward with my car and have a couple questions. I have a MK1 Ford Focus Front I have AP Racing 4 piston Calipers, would that follow under the 4.8.2.Wilwood calipers rule at 5 points per axle? Is there a points value on a Air Intake? Points value on a Quaife limited Slip? Spherical bearings fall under the "Suspension component not listed in table", for 10 points each? The rear brakes converted from drum to disc brakes (SVT calipers) Is that points paying or under the 2x rule? I can purchase a pair of Focus Calipers for $60, Not sure how I would document the Drum system in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, trigun7469 said: I sent a email to tech a month ago (I did so around the holidays) So perhaps they are behind, but I am trying to move forward with my car and have a couple questions. I have a MK1 Ford Focus Front I have AP Racing 4 piston Calipers, would that follow under the 4.8.2.Wilwood calipers rule at 5 points per axle? Is there a points value on a Air Intake? Points value on a Quaife limited Slip? Spherical bearings fall under the "Suspension component not listed in table", for 10 points each? The rear brakes converted from drum to disc brakes (SVT calipers) Is that points paying or under the 2x rule? I can purchase a pair of Focus Calipers for $60, Not sure how I would document the Drum system in comparison. So while only tech can truly answer your questions, I will offer some of my thoughts to prep you for what you are likely to get in response. Front Brakes... A caliper (or any item over the 2x rule not specifically called out by another fixed point value) will run you 10 points, the "special" value of 5 points for wilwood was added due to them being the series sponsor... You may get a 5 point value from tech, but I would expect 10.. and thats Per corner... The brake lines are hoses, and are exempt, the mounting brakes are not and must be claimed, but it all depends on your mount... if its stock mounting points its fasteners which are free, if it requires an adapter plate you claim that as cost of materials... if iits replacing one OE bracket for another bracket, and fits inside the 2x rule (bracket for bracket) tech will allow you to claim zero points under the 2x rule. Air Intakes in advance of the throttle body are Zero points, claim it but no points... its basically considered an "air filter" which is zero points.. and hoses are already free / exempt (like fasteners).... Limited slip is a problem for you... You have few choices... The diff must be stock (or modified stock part), or come from another car on the list... if one of those, then you can claim it as a swap... 25 points... if not, you will likely be pushed into EC... Spherical bearings are listed as "Heim Joints" and 5 points per... however, you have the option of claiming them as a non-oe suspension component, and then can claim the assembly as 10 points per corner... IE if you replace a lower control arm, which has two spherical bearings, you can claim 10 points in heim joints in the stock part, or run some fancy race part, for the same 10 points... Your milage may vary here, we have always claimed 10 points for our trailing arm sphericals, but you might get 5 points if its really a stock part with just a spherical bearing. So rear brakes, its all about the parts left on the car... if you have to modify the knuckle or hub; your probably ok, if you have to replace any of those parts, those arent covered by the 2x rule... You will need to negotiate with tech for how many 10 point "assemblies" to count, to get the mounting... the brakes should be straight forward 2x... you include the cost of brackets, calipers, vs drums, springs, and slave cly, etc... cost of stock vs stock... apply 2x.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Detroit Lockers are more than 25 points? Never noted an "off the list" requirement for differentials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bandit said: Detroit Lockers are more than 25 points? Never noted an "off the list" requirement for differentials. • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trigun7469 Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Just now, enginerd said: • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included So I just need to find a car that had a Quaife as a stock part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, enginerd said: • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included Interesting. While I went over the rules with a fine tooth comb while plotting, I haven't looked lately. Or I forgot. Was going off the supposed turbo rule that wasn't spelled out the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included • turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts • transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters 4.5.5. Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table one of these things is not like the other.... one of these things is obviously wrong.... can you tell me which thing is not like the others by the time I finish my song...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitsbain Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 you have the car in Erie? or is it over in Ohio? May have to come and help at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 17, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 46 minutes ago, trigun7469 said: So I just need to find a car that had a Quaife LSD as a stock part. As a fellow Focus owner, let me know if you find one... (good luck...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 37 minutes ago, enginerd said: • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included • turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts • transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters 4.5.5. Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table one of these things is not like the other.... one of these things is obviously wrong.... can you tell me which thing is not like the others by the time I finish my song...? Spend your 50 bucks. yawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 47 minutes ago, Bandit said: Spend your 50 bucks. yawn It's an omission / typo which should be fixed with the next BCCR update: 3:16 PM (19 minutes ago) to me Yes, turbos must come from the VPI list. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 So the bold is what's omitted from the list in your eyes? Or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead_42 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Requiring that a limited slip unit come from a "car on the list" is... not logical. Motor, yes fine, transmissions, OK but considering T56s are on the list seems kinda strange to eliminate the available aftermarket versions. Diffs though? No problem with the points, it's the source restriction that bugs me. No skin in that game, I'm lucky I have a factory available diff (even if it is viscous) with a decent ratio... Ignore this rant if you like: I pay more in points to use the transmission that bolts directly to my swapped motor, that aside from the bellhousing pattern is identical in every way right down to the internal bearings, ratios, clutch slave and shift lever, than I would if I paid for an elaborate adapter to bolt to the stock transmission. How does that make sense? Maybe I should just go to EC this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karman1970 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, enginerd said: • differential swap: 25pts for any diff. from a vehicle on the VPI list, stock axles/CVs included • turbochargers and superchargers, non-OE: 100 pts • transmission / transaxle swap: 25pts for any trans. from a vehicle on the VPI list, includes adapters 4.5.5. Engine being swapped in must come from another vehicle in the VPI table one of these things is not like the other.... one of these things is obviously wrong.... can you tell me which thing is not like the others by the time I finish my song...? Could it be that when the word "differential" is used, they are actually referring to the final-drive unit or rear-axle and not the actual thingy that connects the ring gear to the axle shafts? And perhaps differential units themselves have their own, as-yet-undisclosed value? I would hope aftermarket LSDs are not banned completely, just more points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 17, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 54 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said: Requiring that a limited slip unit come from a "car on the list" is... not logical. My sentiments exactly!! This requirement precludes cars that were never offered with LSD from installing one. In other words "the rich get richer" - meaning sportscars that were offered with performance pats such as LSD have another advantage over those of us trying to compete with a car that was not competitive with said sportscars right form the beginning. I thought rules were written to try to equalize the field? This rule does exactly the opposite. Not only illogical, it's just plain stupid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 17, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 hours ago, karman1970 said: Could it be that when the word "differential" is used, they are actually referring to the final-drive unit or rear-axle and not the actual thingy that connects the ring gear to the axle shafts? And perhaps differential units themselves have their own, as-yet-undisclosed value? I would hope aftermarket LSDs are not banned completely, just more points. See bold... Yes, that's precisely what this rule does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 minute ago, mcoppola said: See bold... Yes, that's precisely what this rule does! There aren't any LSD transaxles which fit on the focus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 17, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 The SVT was only offered with a 6 speed MT-285 Getrag. The only other vehicle that used that transaxle is the newish Mini Cooper. Not sure if LSD was offered on the mini. Regular Focus only came with an MTX75 5 speed without LSD from the factory. So if the mini never came with LSD, this rule prevents us from installing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 18, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 5 hours ago, trigun7469 said: So I just need to find a car that had a Quaife as a stock part. 4 hours ago, mcoppola said: As a fellow Focus owner, let me know if you find one... (good luck...) @trigun7469 - I did some homework tonight. The '06-'10 Mini Cooper DID come with factory LSD in the Getrag MT-285 6 speed transaxle. I'm still searching to see if LSD was offered on anything that uses the MTX75 5 speed, which is the standard trans on the non-SVT Focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakenbake Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 I swapped a SVT 6-speed into a customers ZX3. I'm sure you guys would rather have a 5-speed turbo. you'll be rowing gears with any kind of power and the 6-speed Edit: the 6-speed still has a wide open diff inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 18 hours ago, trigun7469 said: So I just need to find a car that had a Quaife as a stock part. Or you need to find a car to have added to the VPI list (even if its over 500 points) that had the quaife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 18, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 13 minutes ago, Xph said: Or you need to find a car to have added to the VPI list (even if its over 500 points) that had the quaife. Here's the answer - which ironically is that the Quaife was offered in a version of the Focus which is not on the VPI list. Or - as my previous post states - the Quaife LSD was offered on the '06-'10 Mini Cooper, which IS on the VPI list. Here's an excerpt from the Quaife Differentials website: Supplied as original equipment to the Ford Motor Company for the 300bhp Ford Focus RS, the Quaife automatic torque biasing (ATB) helical gear limited slip differential (LSD) is a direct replacement for your car’s factory ‘open’ unit. Not that we would run one, but I wonder what the point value would be on the RS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 27 minutes ago, mcoppola said: Here's the answer - which ironically is that the Quaife was offered in a version of the Focus which is not on the VPI list. Or - as my previous post states - the Quaife LSD was offered on the '06-'10 Mini Cooper, which IS on the VPI list. Here's an excerpt from the Quaife Differentials website: Supplied as original equipment to the Ford Motor Company for the 300bhp Ford Focus RS, the Quaife automatic torque biasing (ATB) helical gear limited slip differential (LSD) is a direct replacement for your car’s factory ‘open’ unit. Not that we would run one, but I wonder what the point value would be on the RS... It doesn't matter if you plan on racing one or not - we have zero plans to race a Ford Explorer but did get it added to the list for the engine. As well it doesn't matter where it ends up for points - it could be assigned 700 and that wouldn't affect you. It just needs to be on the list as a prospective vehicle for you to swap engine/trans/diff from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xph Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Slippery slope... so sort of the same issue with the Subaru WRX STI... or the Golf type R, or for that matter (one that is on the list) the Acura Integra Type R. The WRX but not the STI is on the list, arguably they are different cars... adding something like the Focus RS to the list, would it be in keeping with the performance of the other cars on the list, maybe not... and thats the primary consideration for adding it in the first place; namely would it be way outside the general performance envelope and power to weight targets. If you could find some similar cars already on the list you can make a case to add it and its potential VPI, then adding cars has been pretty simple. Once its added though, what does that do to the swap rules (if you care)... does it suddenly become the highest valued model of your platform, and then break everyone's swap, or is it a different platform for engine swap purposes, but now "on the list" for transmission / diff swap... My guess is we should just petition to have the diff swap "list" requirement dropped, 25 points for a diff not stock to your rear end / transaxle is probably appropriate, and just move on; seems silly to allow some cars to diff swap but not others due to factory offerings, or to try to source some almost as much as a race part weak sauce diff, when the aftermarket part is widely available. Just my 2c though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee mcoppola Posted January 18, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 @Xph brings up a very good point about possible implications. @karman1970 also mentioned something similar earlier in this thread. Was the rule written to prevent people from putting something such as a quick change rear end in a RWD car? If so, then the rule needs to be re-written. 18 hours ago, karman1970 said: Could it be that when the word "differential" is used, they are actually referring to the final-drive unit or rear-axle and not the actual thingy that connects the ring gear to the axle shafts? And perhaps differential units themselves have their own, as-yet-undisclosed value? I would hope aftermarket LSDs are not banned completely, just more points. ^^I'm hoping this is the true intention. But as I mentioned, I believe the SVT could install an LSD, due to the Mini Cooper on the VPI list using the same MT-285 6 speed transaxle. For the non-SVT Focus - I'm still unsure if LSD equipped MTX-75 5 speed transaxles were factory offerings on anything on the VPI list, so that could be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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