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Wasted spark: LS coils vs DIYAUTOTUNE vs VAG


turbogrill
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Hi,

 

I am currently running megasquirt fuel only on my straight 6 but would like to update to control spark as well.

I have to run wasted spark since I only have 3 spark outputs.

 

There is a few options:

LS Coils / D585:

Run 6 LS coils in wasted spark. They can be feed directly from logic output.

Cost: +$200

 

DIYAUTOTune:

IGN6 Coil

Quad Spark driver or home made BIP373 driver

Cost: $100 - $174 

 

1999 - 2001 Golf/Jetta:

2x 4 cyl wasted spark. (032 905 106B)

Cost: $50

 

Engine is a datsun l28. 

 

Any advantages/disadvantages?

 

 

Edited by turbogrill
I need 6 LS coils...
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The LS coils can be had from fleabay for about 80$ /4 pack . Once set up for LS coils, your spares are at the auto parts store. 

 The VW coil/module also will work and is lighter, .smaller footprint but harder to get .  

 

  I just bought 2 of the VW coils for $20each  , fleabay.

 Both are direct drive.  The LS  puts out  a BA spark  for sure. 

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 The ford 6 pole does work.The instructions are a little more involved but easy enough  . 

 The modules and coils  for the GM are expensive.   

  Also the LS at wasted spark, still fire both plugs at the same time. If one plug gets a little fowled, both still fire.    

 

 

Edited by Ogren-Engineering
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3 hours ago, Ogren-Engineering said:

The LS coils can be had from fleabay for about 80$ /4 pack . Once set up for LS coils, your spares are at the auto parts store. 

 The VW coil/module also will work and is lighter, .smaller footprint but harder to get .  

 

  I just bought 2 of the VW coils for $20each  , fleabay.

 Both are direct drive.  The LS  puts out  a BA spark  for sure. 

 

Rock Auto sells D585 coils for under $20, I wonder if these are extreme crap or just cheap. The VW coil is very appealing for ~40 I can get a name brand, need two but still.

3 hours ago, mender said:

Can you use one of these?

image.jpeg.823c182ad4fcc15a9f201e1ab40e8434.jpeg

 

Millions of them out there on GM minivans.

 

2 hours ago, zack_280 said:

Ford EDIS-6 seems like it would be pretty simple.

 

1 hour ago, Ogren-Engineering said:

 The ford 6 pole does work.The instructions are a little more involved but easy enough  . 

 The modules and coils  for the GM are expensive.   

  Also the LS at wasted spark, still fire both plugs at the same time. If one plug gets a little fowled, both still fire.    

 

The nice thing with VW and LS coils is that they have builtin drivers and only requires a logic signal. So it's basiclly just a wire from Megasquirt to the coils, EDIS is a little more involved. The GM minivan require an external driver as well.

 

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8 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Rock Auto sells D585 coils for under $20, I wonder if these are extreme crap or just cheap. The VW coil is very appealing for ~40 I can get a name brand, need two but still.

 

 

 

The nice thing with VW and LS coils is that they have builtin drivers and only requires a logic signal. So it's basiclly just a wire from Megasquirt to the coils, EDIS is a little more involved. The GM minivan require an external driver as well.

 

Sounds like you know more about this than I do, but EDIS-6 or some other common 6 pole coil pack was going to be my suggestion.  

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LS coils are the way to go. Like the other Mike said once you have it set up you can get replacements at any parts store.

 

 

You must have an older MS if it can’t do COP for a 6 cylinder. I had my own interesting and subtle problem when I was setting my MS3Pro up on the rotary. Of course rotaries always have interesting and subtle problems but this was the difference between wasted spark and COP. When I started this build I decided to get wideband O² sensors for both rotors, I wanted to eventually tune each individual rotor, but I figured that even from the start it would be interesting to log both rotors. Once I got the car running it ran great but the idle was a little rough, and watching the AFR gauges the rear rotor was reading lean and erratic, the logs showed that once it was running at higher power and RPM the difference between the front and rear rotor was less, but still there and it always came back once I was back at idle. I did the obvious first and switched both primary and secondary injectors front to rear, made no difference. My next step was to check if I had a bad plug or something with the ignition, I put the ECU in test mode and it fired the front rotor leading and trailing plugs just fine but when I tried to fire the rear leading plug it fired the front leading again. That was really strange but once I looked in the settings I saw that it was set to wasted spark instead of coil on plug, I changed that and all plugs fire as they should and it runs much better. The rear rotor was always running with retarded timing since the leading plug was never firing but as the power went up it got better because the split between leading and trailing was less.
 

IMG_20160518_215452.jpg

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GM LZ4/LZ9 (3.5/3.9L "high value" V6) wasted spark smart coil pack. It's the modern version of the old school GM wasted spark dumb coils shown above. No, I don't know the dwell vs. volts calibration, but I'm sure you can pull it from HP Tuners.

3

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10 hours ago, mbirt said:

GM LZ4/LZ9 (3.5/3.9L "high value" V6) wasted spark smart coil pack. It's the modern version of the old school GM wasted spark dumb coils shown above. No, I don't know the dwell vs. volts calibration, but I'm sure you can pull it from HP Tuners.

3

 

Do you know if it's driven by a logic output?

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5 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Do you know if it's driven by a logic output?

Yes, it is a smart coil. A dumb coil would have 4 pins (one +12v and 3 low side drives to the ECM), while this one has 6 (likely +12v, gnd, sig gnd, and 3 logic pins). Also, there is no chance The General added IGBTs to the E37, E38, and E67 ECMs. Search "3.9" here: https://www.efilive.com/gm-gas-vehicles

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6 minutes ago, mender said:

 

Have read that many times :)

 

They list 4 logic driven coils, all are great and easy for MS. However they are not perfect for wasted 6 cyl. LS is great but might be cheaper easier options. Quality ls coils are expensive.

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10 minutes ago, mbirt said:

Yes, it is a smart coil. A dumb coil would have 4 pins (one +12v and 3 low side drives to the ECM), while this one has 6 (likely +12v, gnd, sig gnd, and 3 logic pins). Also, there is no chance The General added IGBTs to the E37, E38, and E67 ECMs. Search "3.9" here: https://www.efilive.com/gm-gas-vehicles

Thanks! Will investigate!

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On 2/28/2018 at 11:34 PM, mbirt said:

GM LZ4/LZ9 (3.5/3.9L "high value" V6) wasted spark smart coil pack. It's the modern version of the old school GM wasted spark dumb coils shown above. No, I don't know the dwell vs. volts calibration, but I'm sure you can pull it from HP Tuners.

3

 

Having a hard time finding any information about these like pinout an such. Are they commonly used?

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44 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Having a hard time finding any information about these like pinout an such. Are they commonly used?

Because it's not popular like the LS coils, this was an intermediate difficulty googling. Took about 5 minutes.

2014-12-24_145700_2014-12-24_075214.png

 

Yes. From what I can see, the applications are 3.4, 3.5, 3.9, and 4.3L OHV V6.

BUICK LUCERNE 2009-2011
BUICK RENDEZVOUS 2006-2007
BUICK TERRAZA 2005-2007
CHEVROLET EQUINOX 2005-2009
CHEVROLET EXPRESS 1500 2008-2014
CHEVROLET EXPRESS CARGO 2010-2014
CHEVROLET IMPALA 2006-2011
CHEVROLET MALIBU 2004-2010
CHEVROLET MONTE CARLO 2006-2007
CHEVROLET SILVERADO 1500 2007-2013
CHEVROLET UPLANDER 2005-2009
GMC SAVANA 1500 2008-2014
GMC SIERRA 1500 2007-2013
PONTIAC G6 2005-2010
PONTIAC MONTANA 2005-2009
PONTIAC TORRENT 2006-2009
SATURN AURA 2007-2008
SATURN RELAY 2005-2007
SATURN VUE 2008-2009
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36 minutes ago, mbirt said:

Because it's not popular like the LS coils, this was an intermediate difficulty googling. Took about 5 minutes.

2014-12-24_145700_2014-12-24_075214.png

 

Yes. From what I can see, the applications are 3.4, 3.5, 3.9, and 4.3L OHV V6.

BUICK LUCERNE 2009-2011
BUICK RENDEZVOUS 2006-2007
BUICK TERRAZA 2005-2007
CHEVROLET EQUINOX 2005-2009
CHEVROLET EXPRESS 1500 2008-2014
CHEVROLET EXPRESS CARGO 2010-2014
CHEVROLET IMPALA 2006-2011
CHEVROLET MALIBU 2004-2010
CHEVROLET MONTE CARLO 2006-2007
CHEVROLET SILVERADO 1500 2007-2013
CHEVROLET UPLANDER 2005-2009
GMC SAVANA 1500 2008-2014
GMC SIERRA 1500 2007-2013
PONTIAC G6 2005-2010
PONTIAC MONTANA 2005-2009
PONTIAC TORRENT 2006-2009
SATURN AURA 2007-2008
SATURN RELAY 2005-2007
SATURN VUE 2008-2009

 

good googling I did spend over an hour :)

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  • 2 years later...

First I did the VAG and then the LS coils. Found a great bracket for LS coils and bought a set of 7 for next to nothing from ebay.

 

I would recommend LS coils. I also reused the LS harness. 

 

What car is this? 

 

also ignition wires became a problem for me, with the LS coils that was dirt simple.

Edited by turbogrill
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