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2 hours ago, Burningham said:

 

Usually the best case, so yes.  Not trying to be a smartass here, just pointing out the alternative.  As an example, the 2018 SCCA rulebook is 354 pages.  I guess that is on the other extreme but would certainly cover any ambiguities. 

 

This is utterly backwards from every series I have ever been a part of....You build a car to the rulebook, not to what one person says...The rulebook is the final word, not what someone's feeling on that day of what the points are worth...I spend our team's money based on the rule book...That is the measuring stick...Not ambiguous verbal, non-documented, determinations that have been going on for years.  Only if an item is in violation of the written rules is someone consulted and then determined if there is a rules infraction.  In this situation, there is no points total as per the rule book.  Period. 

 

This is where common sense needs to come into play.  It's either there, or its not.

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2 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Perhaps if this WAS in the rulebook, the point value assigned to it would be constant, and not whatever Phil, or someone else, decides at the time....

We recently got the wording changed regarding window nets - another rule that was never in the rulebook.

Yes, I do find it ironic that: At one time, the addition of power steering cost at least one racer I know 40 points, now it is free, but you have to pay 20 points for the cooler. No logic to it at all.

Tankgate: (the secret handshake that allowed teams to blow up their fuel tanks for more capacity) was not corrected until membership outcry against it.

Our BCCR is STILL full of glaring omissions. Several of us previously volunteered to work with the organization to clean up and rewrite the rulebook, but were told our help wasn't needed. Yet, the accepted response to any question is still "Ask Phil." I've written to Phil about a couple things - still waiting for answers...

Hence, the need for a Tch and Rules committee, as @Snake or @Snorman proposed...

 

It was all Snorman.  

 

Don't get me started on Tankgate.  If the fact that a ballooned tank was attempted to be protested, admitted to being ballooned, and then found legal and within the rules by the CEO isnt a good enough example of why there should be a committee then I dont know what is.

Edited by Snake
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The problem is because of the roots of Champcar. Very casual in the early days, and barriers to entry were tossed to get more cars on the track. "Come out to a race before you build your car" was probably the best advice at the time as rules were actually more like rough guidelines, and certainly very little was set in stone.

 

This transition to a proper rulebook with clear, concise wording is part of the series growing up. It's getting there but will likely be a work in progress for a few more years - if it ever is finished.

Edited by mender
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3 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Perhaps if this WAS in the rulebook, the point value assigned to it would be constant, and not whatever Phil, or someone else, decides at the time....

We recently got the wording changed regarding window nets - another rule that was never in the rulebook.

Yes, I do find it ironic that: At one time, the addition of power steering cost at least one racer I know 40 points, now it is free, but you have to pay 20 points for the cooler. No logic to it at all.

 

 

It is in the rule book, of sorts, however yes I would like it in black and white that a power steering cooler has been ruled 20 points for everybody else to follow as well:

 

4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

No need to ask Phil, I asked a few years ago and was ruled 10 points.  Last year I wanted to reconfirm everything as some rules had changed and it was revised to 20 points.  This is direct from Phil.

I didn't read back far enough earlier.

So let me get this straight...it's not in the BCCR. It hasn't been in the BCCR in 2015, 2016, 2017 or 2018. But they assigned 10-points for an item that supports a "driver comfort" item and then later increased it to 20-points. 

tom-delonge-wtf1.gif

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3 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

It is in the rule book, of sorts, however yes I would like it in black and white that a power steering cooler has been ruled 20 points for everybody else to follow as well:

 

4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech.

 

 

That's just like the "all other duties as assigned or required" in a job description, lol.

S. 

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8 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I didn't read back far enough earlier.

So let me get this straight...it's not in the BCCR. It hasn't been in the BCCR in 2015, 2016, 2017 or 2018. But they assigned 10-points for an item that supports a "driver comfort" item and then later increased it to 20-points. 

 

LOL - and I never say LOL.  Yes you have it exactly correct for a car that had a stock OE power steering cooler - in the Mustang it is just an ineffective tube loop in front of the rad.  I replaced it with a finned cooler from a Crown Vic.  I would like to think this might be where a 3-4 person tech comittee would discuss and one would say: tom-delonge-wtf1.gif

Edited by Ron_e
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6 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

It is in the rule book, of sorts, however yes I would like it in black and white that a power steering cooler has been ruled 20 points for everybody else to follow as well:

 

4.4.2. There is NO SUCH THING as a free part, every part of a vehicle has a value. Parts not covered elsewhere in the rules will be assigned a point value by ChampCar Tech.

 

 

By that logic/statement, please tell me how much a lug nut is worth?  Blanket statements like this are what has caused all of the issues thus far.  If a point determination has been assigned to these parts, where is it listed?...A good place would be....Drumroll Please....THE RULE BOOK!!

 

If we want to be a more legitimate series, we need black and white rules.  None of this "will be assigned"....When? at impound??  Meanwhile we have people swapping motors and lying about displacement and ballooning fuel tanks and we wonder why...

 

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1 minute ago, Quicker10u said:

By that logic/statement, please tell me how much a lug nut is worth?  Blanket statements like this are what has caused all of the issues thus far.  If a point determination has been assigned to these parts, where is it listed?...A good place would be....Drumroll Please....THE RULE BOOK!!

 

If we want to be a more legitimate series, we need black and white rules.  None of this "will be assigned"....When? at impound??  Meanwhile we have people swapping motors and lying about displacement and ballooning fuel tanks and we wonder why...

 

 

I think your first question is rhetorical?  I'm not arguing for the side deals, I'm just saying this is what I have and one of the things I account for in my car.  Nobody has questioned me about it in impound, a few have noticed it and said nice cooler, where is that from?  I agree it should be added to the rule book and posted so years ago in the forum section about improving the rule book.

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4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

I think your first question is rhetorical?  I'm not arguing for the side deals, I'm just saying this is what I have and one of the things I account for in my car.  Nobody has questioned me about it in impound, a few have noticed it and said nice cooler, where is that from?  I agree it should be added to the rule book and posted so years ago in the forum section about improving the rule book.

 

4 hours ago, Snorman said:

I didn't read back far enough earlier.

So let me get this straight...it's not in the BCCR. It hasn't been in the BCCR in 2015, 2016, 2017 or 2018. But they assigned 10-points for an item that supports a "driver comfort" item and then later increased it to 20-points. 

tom-delonge-wtf1.gif

Ron you and I have spoke of this. 

 

I have had a few curves sent my way during our Mustang build. This was under the old Administration. The new government is MUCH better. Not perfect but night and day difference.

 I send mails to tech about once a month for clarity with our  Tbird build. Some of my questions are changes from my last email. It takes a week or so but I do get a response. The volume of mails he gets is painful. 

 

As far as the PS cooler I have been using 10 points. I will make the corrections. I know I am on the far right when it comes to cooling. I just do not see the issues with ANY cooling if it keeps a car on the track. Now performance parts should have points. If a car came with a cooler it should not be a charge points wise. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cam Benty
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On 3/7/2018 at 12:48 PM, chip said:

Question to the masses-

How many teams run with power steering?

 

Our 300sx has a ton of caster and is brutal during a stint w/o power steering.  We ran w/o it for some years and we had guys going to the gym just to handle the steering.

 

Finally, at RAtl last year, Randy Pobst settled our debate by coming back in after a stint with a series of large blisters on each hand.

Screenshot_20180315-224721.png

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Tell Randy to give our car a drive, we only have about 500 lbs on each front tire plus power steering. No blisters, muscle cramps, or sore shoulders. :)  

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On 3/15/2018 at 9:48 PM, vtjballeng said:

 

Our 300sx has a ton of caster and is brutal during a stint w/o power steering.  We ran w/o it for some years and we had guys going to the gym just to handle the steering.

 

Finally, at RAtl last year, Randy Pobst settled our debate by coming back in after a stint with a series of large blisters on each hand.

Screenshot_20180315-224721.png

A load of caster=mandatory power steering.

 

Unless you're Cale or Bobby. And they would have appreciated it.

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9 hours ago, Bandit said:

A load of caster=mandatory power steering.

 

Unless you're Cale or Bobby. And they would have appreciated it.

They all run power steering.

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