Year of car? It's a mix and match .

[turbogrill]

Hi,

 

I think the majority of our body is from a 280zx 1980 but the engine block is from 280zx 1982, transmission from 280zx 81 (I think, have had so many), I think the head is from a 1979, Diff is who knows, etc....

 

All of the 280zx has the same points (150), regardless of year. They all suck equally much. 

 

I will take a point for the head since it might make a performance difference and it's polished (got plenty of points to spare). But for the other parts there is no difference in performance, it's just whatever year the closest junkyard car was at the time. I think the 1981 vs 80 tranny had a slight different gearing in 5th.

 

Is there any possibility that I might get in trouble for this during impound? This most be very common for older cars.

 

(Honestly no one will every know and probably not care either)

 

Edit:

 

Some of it might be a platform swap, but suspension is still 1980. Not 1981-83 (some minor but not compatible changes in rear control arms)

[Xph]

So the rules are pretty clear...  you choose what year / make / model you put in your log book, and you document everything thats not "stock" where stock in this case means altered from OE specs (for the purposes of the log books).  You should note whats been cut, slotted etc, however I suspect most teams "forget" about quite a bit of stuff, most ansulary (ie I removed the radio antenna and wire, I removed the door lock assembly,  I removed the headliner, cut holes in this part blah blah  etc)  no one really cares, well until they do and you get protested, again here its all about techs judgement and what you feel is defensible.

 

On the tech sheet you have some discussion with the person tech-ing your car as to if you need to claim points; they may choose to allow some minor modifications without assessing points...  you bring all the detailed information you have, photos, receipts, etc, and support your case, at the end of the day, tech has the final say...  if you can live with that fine, if not, you should work to put all the right parts in place.

 

Of course, your tech sheet and claims of modified parts can optionally be not disclosed to tech, in this case if you are in impound for some reason, and protested, you would of course be at the mercy of tech, potentially bumped to EC.  This generally isnt a problem unless you are in impound; but of course everyone wants everyone else to play by all the rules so disclosed to tech of course is the best choice.

 

Finally there are some really gray areas...  things like dealer installed options, desirable or rare option packages, and my personal favorite (and one that impacts our build) is the swaps must take the TCV of the highest valued model...  its all about your discussion with tech, and as long as its in your log book, you are covered (as long as tech doesn't decide to change their mind under protest).

 

 

That said, this is racing, there are rules, and a non stock part is just that, I would work to get all correct parts, or document them all, if you dont feel they should all be points throw yourself at the mercy of tech, but if you expect to be on the podium, I would not fail to disclose any of the details.

 

[turbogrill]

2 minutes ago, Xph said:

So the rules are pretty clear...  you choose what year / make / model you put in your log book, and you document everything thats not "stock" where stock in this case means altered from OE specs (for the purposes of the log books).  You should note whats been cut, slotted etc, however I suspect most teams "forget" about quite a bit of stuff, most ansulary (ie I removed the radio antenna and wire, I removed the door lock assembly,  I removed the headliner, cut holes in this part blah blah  etc)  no one really cares, well until they do and you get protested, again here its all about techs judgement and what you feel is defensible.

 

On the tech sheet you have some discussion with the person tech-ing your car as to if you need to claim points; they may choose to allow some minor modifications without assessing points...  you bring all the detailed information you have, photos, receipts, etc, and support your case, at the end of the day, tech has the final say...  if you can live with that fine, if not, you should work to put all the right parts in place.

 

Of course, your tech sheet and claims of modified parts can optionally be not disclosed to tech, in this case if you are in impound for some reason, and protested, you would of course be at the mercy of tech, potentially bumped to EC.  This generally isnt a problem unless you are in impound; but of course everyone wants everyone else to play by all the rules so disclosed to tech of course is the best choice.

 

Finally there are some really gray areas...  things like dealer installed options, desirable or rare option packages, and my personal favorite (and one that impacts our build) is the swaps must take the TCV of the highest valued model...  its all about your discussion with tech, and as long as its in your log book, you are covered (as long as tech doesn't decide to change their mind under protest).

 

 

That said, this is racing, there are rules, and a non stock part is just that, I would work to get all correct parts, or document them all, if you dont feel they should all be points throw yourself at the mercy of tech, but if you expect to be on the podium, I would not fail to disclose any of the details.

 

 

Thanks!

 

 I will suggest a platform swap. I think the only thing that wouldn't qualify is the control arms being part of old platform, hopefully I will not get any extra points for that. 

 

Seems like we are lucky that all the 280zx are all the same and has the same points.

 

 

[Xph]

Just now, turbogrill said:

 

Thanks!

 

 I will suggest a platform swap. I think the only thing that wouldn't qualify is the control arms being part of old platform, hopefully I will not get any extra points for that. 

 

Seems like we are lucky that all the 280zx are all the same and has the same points.

 

 

 

We have a similar issue, we have to take the SI points because of the engine swap having to start with the highest point model, we use a DX trans, but we have rear disk brakes SI brakes...   so for us we either call it an SI with a trans swap to go with our engine swap...   or we call it a DX with engine swap and have to take 10 points per side for the disk brake rear trailing arms (brakes themselves are 2x) but trailing arm is different due to mounting tabs.

 

Neither would probably technically cause us an issue, but we are also not getting anywhere near the podium with that setup.  if it was a problem for us, we could probably make our own trailing arms modifying the DX arms with some cost of materials, or even convert back to drum brakes, but its just not that important at this point.

 

Unlike you though, we do expect that other Honda people will know the codes and know a DX transmission from an SI transmission. and so we work hard to make sure we have all exactly right part numbers.

[zack_280]

Discuss with Phil, but if you are talking about S130 parts, it's probably going to be difficult to say what model year they came from.  If you are talking about S30 parts, you should probably technically claim them...For instance, if you have an E31 head on a L28 block, I think you'd technically have to claim a head swap.  

[turbogrill]

31 minutes ago, zack_280 said:

Discuss with Phil, but if you are talking about S130 parts, it's probably going to be difficult to say what model year they came from.  If you are talking about S30 parts, you should probably technically claim them...For instance, if you have an E31 head on a L28 block, I think you'd technically have to claim a head swap.  

 

Good point, there is also a lot of good S130 parts that are nice performance bolts on to the S30s.

With the S130 the mix and match don't give you much (except the heads). I guess a rear brake pad change on a 1983 takes 5 min instead of 25min due to the idiotic caliper design on the early 280zx. Is that worth something?

 

I will take it up to the tech guy, there is enough points to claim everything as swaps if he is in a bad mode...

[mender]

7 hours ago, Xph said:

 

We have a similar issue, we have to take the SI points because of the engine swap having to start with the highest point model, we use a DX trans, but we have rear disk brakes SI brakes...   so for us we either call it an SI with a trans swap to go with our engine swap...   or we call it a DX with engine swap and have to take 10 points per side for the disk brake rear trailing arms (brakes themselves are 2x) but trailing arm is different due to mounting tabs.

 

Neither would probably technically cause us an issue, but we are also not getting anywhere near the podium with that setup.  if it was a problem for us, we could probably make our own trailing arms modifying the DX arms with some cost of materials, or even convert back to drum brakes, but its just not that important at this point.

 

Unlike you though, we do expect that other Honda people will know the codes and know a DX transmission from an SI transmission. and so we work hard to make sure we have all exactly right part numbers.

We have a '95 Civic hatchback with a B18B engine swap and still have the drum brakes in the rear; does this mean that we have to take points for the non-SI parts because we have to claim the SI for the engine swap?

[Ron_e]

8 minutes ago, mender said:

We have a '95 Civic hatchback with a B18B engine swap and still have the drum brakes in the rear; does this mean that we have to take points for the non-SI parts because we have to claim the SI for the engine swap?

 

I believe you just have to clam the points for the swap, your car doesn't have to be the swap if you chose to stay the lower level.  However you can't pick parts from each trim level, you have to have all of the parts from the trim level you are claiming, take the points for the highest trim level, then go race.

[turbogrill]

13 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

I believe you just have to clam the points for the swap, your car doesn't have to be the swap if you chose to stay the lower level.  However you can't pick parts from each trim level, you have to have all of the parts from the trim level you are claiming, take the points for the highest trim level, then go race.

 

So what about different years? Are that considered trim level or a different car?

 

I.e is the first E36 325 that rolled out of the factory identical to the very last one that rolled out?

 

I wouldn't think so.

 

 

[Ron_e]

5 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

So what about different years? Are that considered trim level or a different car?

 

I.e is the first E36 325 that rolled out of the factory identical to the very last one that rolled out?

 

I wouldn't think so.

 

 

 

That is up to you the builder to make sure you have the right parts for the year and model you are claiming. 

 

Say for example I was running a 79-84 Mustang 5.0.  I would need to know that in 83 they went from a 1" sway bar to an 1 1/8".  Depending on which size I use I need to claim the correct year and make sure I have all of the corresponding parts as well.

 

To get back to your original question, depending on your block the pistons will be dished or flat top.  Serial numbers do not matter but piston/head combinations do for compression.

 

 

From: http://datsunzgarage.com/heads/

 

[turbogrill]

34 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

That is up to you the builder to make sure you have the right parts for the year and model you are claiming. 

 

Say for example I was running a 79-84 Mustang 5.0.  I would need to know that in 83 they went from a 1" sway bar to an 1 1/8".  Depending on which size I use I need to claim the correct year and make sure I have all of the corresponding parts as well.

 

To get back to your original question, depending on your block the pistons will be dished or flat top.  Serial numbers do not matter but piston/head combinations do for compression.

 

 

From: http://datsunzgarage.com/heads/

 

 

Ok, so what counts as "corresponding parts"? Driveline, brakes, fuel tank - everything that affects VPI? But probably not windshield wipers...

 

Let's pretend that the 79 was lighter than the 84, less material or something.

It could be beneficial to take all the 84 parts on a 79 shell and claim it as a 84?

 

We are taking 100 points for the head since we don't have a OEM combo. But I will claim a 82 even if the car  was pushed out of the factory 80. All (important) parts on our 80 are from  82. So that should work?

 

The only parts except the body that is still 1980:

 - rear control arm brake mounting

 - Power steering box was redesigned

 

 

[Ron_e]

You are mixing an 80 and 82 car.  Looks like 81 was a change over year for pistons and heads, are you sure those are the only things that changed?

 

Control arm brake mounting would not matter, if the material thickness or length of the overall arm were different then it would matter.

Steering box re-design would not matter as I believe even adding a complete power steering unit to a manual steering car is now considered driver comfort.  Adding a power steering cooler however is added points.

 

Most cars get fatter over time as marketing adds bling.  Your 79 example is probably lighter due to manual seats, door locks, mirrors etc.  The 84 example is usually fatter with power seats, door locks, T roofs, etc.

 

VIN numbers do not matter.

[mender]

An example: nobody should claim a Fiero as being an '84-'86. 

1. They have a listed weight in the swap formula at 2216 lbs (!).

2. They have a 10.0 gallon fuel tank.

 

By contrast, an '87 is the one to claim because:

1. They have a listed weight of 2512 lbs (correct weight)

2. They have an 11.9 gallon fuel tank.

 

The difference in the car chassis from '84 to '87 is zero so exactly the same weight despite the 300 lb discrepancy in the swap formula list. The difference: an '87 with a 196 hp engine swap (like mine) is 83 additional points; same 196 hp in an '84-'86 Fiero is 392 additional points. 

 

Do your research carefully.

 

 

[turbogrill]

7 hours ago, mender said:

 

 

Do your research carefully.

 

 

Seems like carefully is a key word.

 

9 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

 

VIN numbers do not matter.

 

They changed the brakes as well, but we are running wilwoods anyway. Lots of interior options and some body styling changed I think, they also modified the exhaust but that is open as well.

 

Seems like if I declare the car as a 1982 and possibility take a hit on the 1980 control arms I should be fine?

Will also declare the head as non OEM amongst all other go fast parts.

[Ron_e]

13 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Seems like carefully is a key word.

 

 

They changed the brakes as well, but we are running wilwoods anyway. Lots of interior options and some body styling changed I think, they also modified the exhaust but that is open as well.

 

Seems like if I declare the car as a 1982 and possibility take a hit on the 1980 control arms I should be fine?

Will also declare the head as non OEM amongst all other go fast parts.

 

Hemmings groups the 79-83, the head change in 81 gains 10 hp and 10 torque.  If you run the 79 head on a claimed 82 car then I would claim it.  Everything else is fine, no points for brake light and bumper differences.  Brakes are open as long as they are within 2X, do your paperwork with value for 82 brakes.  If it is just the brake mounting that is different on the 79 control arms then there is no need to claim them.

[turbogrill]

3 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Hemmings groups the 79-83, the head change in 81 gains 10 hp and 10 torque.  If you run the 79 head on a claimed 82 car then I would claim it.  Everything else is fine, no points for brake light and bumper differences.  Brakes are open as long as they are within 2X, do your paperwork with value for 82 brakes.  If it is just the brake mounting that is different on the 79 control arms then there is no need to claim them.

 

Great! Thanks

That makes sense, will do some digging on the control arms.

 

In 82 they did add a computer speaking voice if you forgot your headlights on. I think that should bump us to EC.

[mender]

2 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Great! Thanks

That makes sense, will do some digging on the control arms.

 

In 82 they did add a computer speaking voice if you forgot your headlights on. I think that should bump us to EC.

Had that on my '81 810 Maxima. 

[Ron_e]

5 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

In 82 they did add a computer speaking voice if you forgot your headlights on. I think that should bump us to EC.

 

I need that for my drivers if it can be recorded over to say, "Shift now dumbass", or "Stay off the freaking bumpers idiot".

[Xph]

22 hours ago, mender said:

We have a '95 Civic hatchback with a B18B engine swap and still have the drum brakes in the rear; does this mean that we have to take points for the non-SI parts because we have to claim the SI for the engine swap?

 

My interpretation of the rules are that you still have to claim one or the other, and pay for all the parts that are different...   IE you claim SI or Non SI...  the only thing the swap rule does is force you to take the highest MPV; it does not force you to or allow you to mix and match parts.

[mender]

2 hours ago, Xph said:

 

My interpretation of the rules are that you still have to claim one or the other, and pay for all the parts that are different...   IE you claim SI or Non SI...  the only thing the swap rule does is force you to take the highest MPV; it does not force you to or allow you to mix and match parts.

That was my understanding as well, thanks for the confirmation.

[tommytipover]

19 hours ago, turbogrill said:

In 82 they did add a computer speaking voice if you forgot your headlights on. I think that should bump us to EC.

 

 I'd propose they let you deduct 10 points if you've got a working voice box.

[Bandit]

13 hours ago, tommytipover said:

 

 I'd propose they let you deduct 10 points if you've got a working voice box.

A buddy had some Chrysler made turbo 2.2 back in the late 80's that talked to you. Was rather annoying.

[mender]

1 hour ago, Bandit said:

A buddy had some Chrysler made turbo 2.2 back in the late 80's that talked to you. Was rather annoying.

Very enigmatic and metaphysical: " a door is a jar."

[Bandit]

1 hour ago, mender said:

Very enigmatic and metaphysical: " a door is a jar."

The 92 Beretta GT 5 speed the GF bought new didn't talk to you and smoked it on the back roads. Had the pace car 17's (16's? Been a while) factory. Kinda rare. Same color without the cladding. Had to go all the way to Milwaukee to get it on dealer trade.

 

The 92 SCX laughed at both.  with 14's. Thing was badass for it's time. Never find another, but that's the only non V8 I'd run in Champcar.

 

Way faster than my ten years newer E46.

[mcoppola]

9 hours ago, Bandit said:

Way faster than my ten years newer E46.

@Bandit - you have/had an E46?

What's all this talk about American Iron & Muscle?

The word hypocrite comes to mind.....

Or was that heresy?