Dcwilliams00 96 Report post Posted March 10 Does anyone else have a problem with current protest procedures? There was one Saturday night where, for 50 dollars, a team was requested to pop their head off. On pit road. At night. There has to be a better option than that. If I was asked to take my head off (the team didn’t need to when it was all said and done) I would just walk away and forfeit the trophy. Thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DEE DEE 547 Report post Posted March 10 When would you have preferred it to be done? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron_e 4,477 Report post Posted March 10 An engine should be cool before removing the head, I would try to find another way to resolve it and it sounds like they did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill Strong 4,698 Report post Posted March 10 There is a cc / cid tester. But it only works on ohv engines. That could be done on pit lane. But no way to pull the head in the allowed time.right? The v6 mr2 you would need to drop the whole engine e to do it. Not a fast job either. But by the time you got it ready to drop, it should be cool enough. So how does one measure for stroked/over bore engines without pulling the head? And know that a blue printed engine won't be exactly the same as a factory engine on any measurement. And where do we get the measurements from.? The internet? A factory service manual? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Franck 1,806 Report post Posted March 10 In the round roundy round world tear downs after the race are the norm . The tech guys at South Boston Speedway will require the top three to five cars in each division to remove whatever . The last time I went it was pure stock rear carier out to check positraction , limited sportsman clutch and flywheel out for weight check , late model pull head and lifters , wrenches were flying and I was so glad not to be hands on and wondered what time those guys were gona get home . As Bill said the tool to check displacement on over head valve engines is not expensive or to hard to do but to check over head cam requires cam removal not ez and very labor intensive to get running again . What the answer is will be thought out and solved . But with a protest only being $50 what happens when you pull me down and I'm found legal you should have to pay $$$$$ , Smokey doesn't put my engine together for nothin and putting BMW ,Porches or any modern engine back together right ain't cheap . As a club we will have to solve this but as it stands now our tech is focused on safety, as it should be , and think about that for a minute 120 + cars will be at Daytona . Like I said this will be thought out and solved , it's just part of our growing pains , but it's going to cost somebody. 3 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 10 How should engine builds be policed if we are never going to tear down one down that is suspect? If nobody is going to ever look, it seems like pretty good invitation to do naughty stuff inside there. No one wants to police fuel and or limit octane. No one wants to look inside an engine. Seems like we need some some folks that have some tools and training to check things in the least invasive way possible. There have been folks just call one engine a smaller one when it can be seen from 20 feet away, do ya suppose anybody has any shenanigans inside the where it currently seems highly unlikely that anyone will ever see............? It must be possible, they figured out how put ads on the forum............... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lethal Cliff 59 Report post Posted March 10 I have been waiting for this to pop-up on here. Champcar needs to find a solution soon. The issue was not "figured out" last Saturday night. The person that protested was told by tech that the protest "could not be accepted because tech did not have the tools to check it". This can become a very big problem. 3 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lethal Cliff 59 Report post Posted March 10 There are a few ways to check displacement that i have used. A way with liquid and a mechanical way. The liquid will only work when you can disable the valve train to ensure the valves are closed. The mechanical is pretty much fool proof as long as you can physically get the tools in place. The mechanical is not 100% accurate because of piston top shapes, but pretty damn close. I'm sure someone will find a situation where these two ways won't work, but they should cover most vehicles. The liquid way is as followed. Set engine to TDC of #1 cylinder. Disable valve train (remove rocker arms or timing belt) Remove #1 spark plug and roll over to TDC of the compression stroke. Screw the adapter in the spark plug hole. Connect the hose to a tank/beaker with a measured amount of liquid. Slowly roll the engine back to the BDC of compression stroke. This will cause the engine to fill the cylinder with the liquid. At this point you set the "zero" mark on the tank/beaker. Then roll the engine over to TDC and see how much Liquid the piston pushes (displaces) into the tank/beaker. Look at the amount of liquid now in the tank/beaker compared to the "zero" And just like that you have the volume of a cylinder. Then multiply by number of cylinders in the engine and you have the overall volume of the engine. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Engine-Cubic-Inch-Tester-Tool,703.html The mechanical way uses the tool below through the spark plug hole With #1 cylinder at BDC to measure cylinder diameter/bore. Then use a depth gauge to measure the length from TDC to BDC. Use the formula below to figure the displacement. Of that cylinder Then multiply by the number of cylinders and you have overall volume of the engine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 10 9 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said: "could not be accepted because tech did not have the tools to check it". Serious problem indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron_e 4,477 Report post Posted March 10 A Chev is a Chev, Ford is Ford, BMW is BMW, is bore important or are you just after measuring stroke? Either it will be close (correct), or way out of whack (stroked). Is there much to be gained by boring an engine which would be normal in a rebuild anyway? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enginerd 3,946 Report post Posted March 10 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Ron_e said: A Chev is a Chev, Ford is Ford, BMW is BMW, is bore important or are you just after measuring stroke? Either it will be close (correct), or way out of whack (stroked). Is there much to be gained by boring an engine which would be normal in a rebuild anyway? If a BMW is increasing displacement it’s through stroke length. Cylinder walls are thin. I just had a BMW engine rebuilt (unknown hundreds of thousands of miles), no bore needed, walls were in great shape. Edited March 10 by enginerd 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron_e 4,477 Report post Posted March 10 9 minutes ago, enginerd said: If a BMW is increasing displacement it’s through stroke length. Cylinder walls are thin. I just had a BMW engine rebuilt (unknown hundreds of thousands of miles), no bore needed, walls were in great shape. Exactly, just need to measure stroke, bore I think is identifiable just by looking at the engine. Most engines I can think of anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Franck 1,806 Report post Posted March 11 1 hour ago, Lethal Cliff said: There are a few ways to check displacement that i have used. A way with liquid and a mechanical way. The liquid will only work when you can disable the valve train to ensure the valves are closed. The mechanical is pretty much fool proof as long as you can physically get the tools in place. The mechanical is not 100% accurate because of piston top shapes, but pretty damn close. I'm sure someone will find a situation where these two ways won't work, but they should cover most vehicles. The liquid way is as followed. Set engine to TDC of #1 cylinder. Disable valve train (remove rocker arms or timing belt) Remove #1 spark plug and roll over to TDC of the compression stroke. Screw the adapter in the spark plug hole. Connect the hose to a tank/beaker with a measured amount of liquid. Slowly roll the engine back to the BDC of compression stroke. This will cause the engine to fill the cylinder with the liquid. At this point you set the "zero" mark on the tank/beaker. Then roll the engine over to TDC and see how much Liquid the piston pushes (displaces) into the tank/beaker. Look at the amount of liquid now in the tank/beaker compared to the "zero" And just like that you have the volume of a cylinder. Then multiply by number of cylinders in the engine and you have the overall volume of the engine. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Engine-Cubic-Inch-Tester-Tool,703.html The mechanical way uses the tool below through the spark plug hole With #1 cylinder at BDC to measure cylinder diameter/bore. Then use a depth gauge to measure the length from TDC to BDC. Use the formula below to figure the displacement. Of that cylinder Then multiply by the number of cylinders and you have overall volume of the engine. Naw just removing the timing belt won't work on most over head cam engines , called interference, the pistons will hit the valves on the other cylinders . The mechanical is iffy because of spark plug hole locations and getting the tool square to the bore , critical , remember the variety of engins we are dealing with here .. I feel a solution will come but like I said above $$$ and some will not like it . If you are going to look at an engine to disqualify someone it has to be done right and on some engines it's not what you have to do to check it its getting it back together that's money . Getting the tools to check is not that expensive the knowledge is already here . But you pull me down and I am right and you are wrong who is going to fix and pay for what you have done to my engine that $50 ain't gona touch it .. THAT IS WHAT MUST BE FIGURED OUT . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 11 Some amount to pay for the gasket set. Not an amount that pays labor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Franck 1,806 Report post Posted March 11 3 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: Some amount to pay for the gasket set. Not an amount that pays labor. Well if I'm running let's say a v8 ford overhead cam the factory timing chain has no marks cant get it back in time without a new chain set $$ ,the many torque to stretch head bolt engines $$$$ , . It's already going to be a pain in my azz to get my engine back together why should I have to pay Smokey too . I was not cheating you were wrong why should it cost me ? 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 11 ^^ ok let's eliminate the rule that says internals are supposed to be stock. No one will pay 9gillion to protest so no one will ever know. Let's just make it legal. Your not wrong but what's the answer? Lots of stuff could probably be looked at with a trained trained eye and a bore scope. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ogren-Engineering 1,661 Report post Posted March 11 (edited) The " Whistler"( Katek) works well and on any engine. SCCA uses it all the time on National races. It is very accurate for engine size (+-2CI) ,and pretty accurate for compression. +-.5. Real world , Any bore that fits in the stock block is not guna be a deal breaker/ world beater. Stroke can be measured down the hole with most if not all center plug engines easy. For VW style 2 valve engines a coat hanger can tell the difference between the stroke options , as they are 10 MM apart. As are the BMW 2.7 vs 2.5 , easy check . Compression on the other hand is a valid concern IMHO. I I CC all of my SCCA engines assembled, and can be done in the car with the nose lifted a little. The center plug 4 valve cars( Miata ) can also be done the same way. You need a burette and you have to know the actual CC of the jug. BTW a cranking compression test also shows well compared to the factory manual. The VW shows a valid book test at 140to 175 cranking compression. The race engines show about 230 @ 12/1. At the least we should require factory manuals for the engine as installed. Edited March 11 by Ogren-Engineering 8 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 11 It's been suggested before that data loggers in cars could be used. Maybe that's a route that would be smart. "Car x should not be able to pull more than xx g's under acceleration with legal hp No need to tear down. ?? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ogren-Engineering 1,661 Report post Posted March 11 (edited) You need actual rolling weight value. no weight rules. There are so many things that are not controlled. IE Boost. Just add 4 # over stock and stuff goes pretty fast . On a stock bottom end. We just have too little control and rules over all . Edited March 11 by Ogren-Engineering Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDChristianson 2,607 Report post Posted March 11 Maybe everybody just has to pinky swear that they ain't cheating in front of a baby Jesus Yes Ricky Bobby is on tv 4 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Franck 1,806 Report post Posted March 11 What tha internals are supposed to be stock . Unless I use my points for cam ,heads , pistons ,rods or crank then not so . But size , claimed cubic inches, by class yes . Read up on the whistler very temperature sensitive . Mike I'm guessing SCCA checks before the race on cold engines, can you tell us ? Way to many variables for the data logger, expecially the way I gut my car , weight matters . Yeah some engins are easy to check but others NOT ! No trained eye can determine stroke . I take my Jesus seriously but that's a choice for the rest of you . 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dcwilliams00 96 Report post Posted March 11 It isn’t that I don’t think we should still be able to police each other and challenge each other, it’s just that I don’t think taking the head off after a 12 hour race at 10 at night on pit road, for $50, is the option. A lot lot of smart people on here with good ideas for solutions. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoppola 1,732 Report post Posted March 11 (edited) 12 hours ago, okkustom said: What tha internals are supposed to be stock . Unless I use my points for cam ,heads , pistons ,rods or crank then not so . But size , claimed cubic inches, by class yes . Read up on the whistler very temperature sensitive . Mike I'm guessing SCCA checks before the race on cold engines, can you tell us ? Way to many variables for the data logger, expecially the way I gut my car , weight matters . Yeah some engins are easy to check but others NOT ! No trained eye can determine stroke . I take my Jesus seriously but that's a choice for the rest of you . Good man, Ray. ... It's sad that lot of folks don't nowadays. Edited March 11 by mcoppola 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mender 5,828 Report post Posted March 11 12 hours ago, okkustom said: Read up on the whistler very temperature sensitive . I've seen it in action a fair bit on the engines that I built for NASCAR, no problem being within 0.1 point of compression. What was the protest for? Compression ratio, bore, stroke, valve size, etc.? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crank Yankers Racing 2,628 Report post Posted March 11 The forum was getting pretty dry. Glad we have some good content now. Carry on 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
