Jump to content

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Jamie said:

 

 

What black magic to you think the Motec/Haltech's have? They aren't going to make any more power then the mega squirt. And honestly they all suck compared to a modern OEM's ECU (assuming you have the A2L files). 

 

You are absolutely right. Or I should say you could be absolutely right. I'll never know because I don't have the budget to sink into that, thus why I run in a budget friendly series. Or at least I used to. Racing isn't cheap, I get it and my budget might be 2x of others and yours could be 3x, I don't know. But a series that built it's roots on "$500 cars" doesn't seem so budget friendly when you talk of unlimited data acquisition, telemetry, and crazy tuning abilities that seem reserved for high-dollar professional race cars. 

 

Like I said, maybe that's where we are. The perception doesn't seem right to me. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And also, since that won't be a for sure answer, get a weight on each car and the engine they "claim". Don't have to dyno, but printed power to weight ratios will answer if the car is faster than it should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jeff Bennett said:

The 67 had the M54B25. I don't know the diff ratio. 

 

I'm confused, is that supposed to be M50B24 or M50B25?  M54B25 isn't in the charts you gave earlier.  BMW math is hard for me.

Edited by Ron_e
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

BMW math is hard for me.

It's even hard(er) for us owners...:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The M54B25 is the aluminum block engine.  It has the same power rating as the iron block M50 and M52 engines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, flboy7x said:

 

hmm...so a 450 point 1987 e30 with a '03 e46 m54 2.5 motor...

 

must be a 530pt car with nothing else added...

 

interesting ;););)

 

 

 

E46 with a m54 2.5 is 500pts. E30 with a m54 swap 2.5 is 505pts. 

Edited by frankrehnelt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jeff Bennett said:

Now all I have to do is weather the criticism of my driving from the beginning of the race. 

Not that bad; the first few seconds when you were close to the 146 car was telling though. The other car was on the throttle about 1.5 seconds before you were and that's a hard disadvantage to overcome. 

 

There were a few more corners where you were also a little cautious getting back to throttle but you seemed to have that figured out in the second half of your video. As you said, to be expected when getting used to a new car and track.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Alchemy Autosport said:

Ok so back to some sort of solution...

 

 

I am ok with pulling heads as long as there is a good reason for it backed by data.  Otherwise every race will have head bolts flying...

 

There won’t be a solution until everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, gets past the fear of inconvenience.

It should be the absolute right of any competitor willing to post an appropriate bond to be able to verify that a competitor is legal, especially since we’ve been told over and over that it’s a competitor-policed series.

 

Will there be folks that have have to pull legal motors apart? Yes.

Will it happen more than once? Absolutely.

Will it happen at every race? For a while.

 

Eventually the bar for legal performance is set and the protests die down.  “Gee Fred, that BMW sure is fast. He MUST be cheating.” “I dunno George. John had him taken apart at the last race and they didn’t find a thing”.

 

If we don’t get a grip on this quick, it’ll be just like the fuel tank deal. As I write this, there’s someone, somewhere, already planning to put his illegal motor back in the car. Why not? No one is going to check.

 

If you’re legal, you wear the cheater tag like a badge of honor. You negotiate the bond as high as you can, take it apart and pocket the cash, all the while knowing that you’ll soon be vindicated.

 

I’ve  been an SCCA guy for 25 years. I can count the engine protests I’ve seen on one hand. The reason for that is because the threat to take someone apart is real.

 

Chuck Newman 

Chattahoochee Motorsports

#828 Miata

Edited by cnewman92
Misspelling
  • Like 8
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/12/2018 at 12:03 PM, Ogren-Engineering said:

Just for the third time. The whistler is very accurate for engine size.  It has been at every pro race I have witnessed.  And some roundy tracks.  

Truck pullers as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cnewman92 said:

 

There won’t be a solution until everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, gets past the fear of inconvenience.

It should be the absolute right of any competitor willing to post an appropriate bond to be able to verify that a competitor is legal, especially since we’ve been told over and over that it’s a competitor-policed series.

 

Will there be folks that have have to pull legal motors apart? Yes.

Will it happen more than once? Absolutely.

Will it happen at every race? For a while.

 

Eventually the bar for legal performance is set and the protests die down.  “Gee Fred, that BMW sure is fast. He MUST be cheating.” “I dunno George. John had him taken apart at the last race and they didn’t find a thing”.

 

If we don’t get a grip on this quick, it’ll be just like the fuel tank deal. As I write this, there’s someone, somewhere, already planning to put his illegal motor back in the car. Why not? No one is going to check.

 

If you’re legal, you wear the cheater tag like a badge of honor. You negotiate the bond as high as you can, take it apart and pocket the cash, all the while knowing that you’ll soon be vindicated.

 

I’ve  been an SCCA guy for 25 years. I can count the engine protests I’ve seen on one hand. The reason for that is because the threat to take someone apart is real.

 

Chuck Newman 

Chattahoochee Motorsports

#828 Miata

https://jalopnik.com/so-many-spec-miatas-allegedly-cheated-that-seventh-plac-1645710255

you must have funny looking hands.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, cnewman92 said:

Not a protest.

 

That was implemented by the sanctioning body, and they pretty much cleaned it up.

 

Try again.

"At the Sports Car Club of America's National Championship Runoffs this weekend, a protest was made that penalized the top six cars in its über-popular Spec Miata class, preventing them from winning the class over a modification to the engine heads. Oops!"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW,  SCCA takes the Miatas apart from the crank pulley  to the rear axle hub carriers. I mean everything ,engine complete, the gear box, diff, axles are weighed, everything that spins. 

 We dont need that deal as we have no rules , nor want them  that deep.

  We just want to  keep the engine size  honest and the compression honest. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, tdh136 said:

"At the Sports Car Club of America's National Championship Runoffs this weekend, a protest was made that penalized the top six cars in its über-popular Spec Miata class, preventing them from winning the class over a modification to the engine heads. Oops!"

 

 

You really should quit quoting Jalopnik. 

 

This was was found during post race tech at the 2014 Runoffs. Top 6 are torn down by procedure. Truth is, if they’d torn down 7, 8, 9, etc, they would have probably found the same things.

 

i believe we’re talking about competitor driven protests?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I think we are talking about someone calling someone else a cheater.  When it certainly looked to me like they got beat on strategy, consistency  and execution on the pitstops.  And I came to that conclusion before the 47 page data analysis.  Just looked at the Speedhive lap times.

Most people in Champcar are just out to have fun. 

I think some people really need to look at why they are doing this.  It is supposed to be fun.  Let's keep it that way.

And:

https://www.scca.com/articles/1995226-stearns-named-spec-miata-champion-following-post-race-penalties

"“What happened this week, with so many cars being non-compliant, is unfortunate. We need to ensure that this moment is a trigger for a positive change in this class,” SCCA President Lisa Noble said."  Sounds like a politician to me.

http://goaheadtakethewheel.com/2014-spec-miata-runoffs-splunge-gate/

"During the 2014 SCCA Runoffs, a protest was filed against nine Spec Miata cars. While the SCCA protest process requires one individual to sign their name to it, in this instance there was a group of drivers who collaborated and moved forward with this protest. It is well believed that they had seen proof of certain SM engines being modified in a manner they felt was illegal. This was a gutsy move on their behalf as for each car being protested, it was necessary for them to put up a $1,400 bond ($12,600 in total). SCCA tech stewards sealed the engines and allowed the protested participants to race before moving forward with tearing the engines down. What the involved parties most likely didn’t expect was to receive death threats, which at least one of them did.

Post-race inspection resulted in 8 of the 9 competitors found with illegal engine modifications, where the cylinder heads had illegal porting and other infractions. Bear with us here, for a brief tech explanation and history review."

Want me to find more?

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not how I remembered it, but I am getting old....my apologies. Even so, that was only ONE protest. ;)

 

it is supposed to be fun. For everyone, not just the winners.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree and I am all for figuring out a good way to check the stuff, but I can tell you, pulling a head in the rain or cold, 1,500 miles from home on a Sunday night and needing to catch a plane at 5:00am the next morning would make it really unfun for me.  I'd forfeit just to not deal with it.  And I guess the whiner would get their rotor prize and feel better. about their "win".  I wouldn't,  would you?

And, just so you know, I had a buddy in the SM race (not one of the cheaty cars) at WGI in 2014 so I got the story.  Sucky deal all the way around.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my SCCA experiences a long time ago, at the “national” level cheating is taken to an art form.  In showroom stock, the winner at the runoffs was DQ’d as often as not.  At the “regional” level it wasn’t as bad, but it still was widespread.  One of the things that seemed to drive it in showroom stock was that you really couldn’t finish a race without cheating on your brakes.  The SCCA had/has an incredibly elaborate governance and judicial process with as many checks and balances as you could hope for, but that just made the cheating very sophisticated.   At the end of the day, the guys with lots of money could afford the ridiculously sophisticated cheating methods and won most of the races. 

At Champ, we don’t have the massive structure.  We have what could be called a “benevolent dictator” model.  Heck - there are only 3 full time employees according to Bill (I don’t know who the third is).  I think the model we have is working pretty well, and costs WAY LESS to administer than the SCCA model.  I know there is a lot of frustration among some folks that we have rules in the book and no game plan for them.   I just imagine JC drinking a tall glass of whiskey and writing all of those rules and I think “he didn’t know what he was going to do - he was going to cross the bridge when he got there”.   So now Mike has inherited that, for better or worse, and he and his tiny team are trying to sort it out.  

I trust that they will figure something out.  It won’t be perfection though.  If you want perfection, you really need to head over to the SCCA for that.  It won’t be any better in the end, but at least you will have unlimited process and procedure and everything perfectly documented.  Oh - and an hour of race time will cost you what 8 hours costs you in Chump.  

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, flboy7x said:

 

 

series is turning into nothing but a motor swap series...

 

 

Only if your drivers aren’t that good. The two e30s talked about here of @Huggy and @Hi_Im_Will aren’t swaped. The dominate west coast car is Arsenic’s Miata which is a non swapped 1.8L. Is the RBR Saab even a swap? I don’t think so but i could be wrong. The arguement here is about protesting engine modifications. If you have an issue with swap rules write the board.

Edited by Jamie
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Jamie said:

 

Only if your drivers aren’t that good. The two e30s talked about here of @Huggy and @Hi_Im_Will aren’t swaped. The dominate west coast car is Arsenic’s Miata m is a non swapped 1.8L. Is the RBR Saab even a swap? I don’t think so but i could be wrong. The arguement here is about protesting engine modifications. If you have an issue with swap rules write the board.

 

I don't think any of the cars you listed are swapped. Swaps are hardly "taking over", and for the most part the rule works quite well. The platform that comes to mind being "out of line" when swapped is only that way because of excessive lobbying and an artificially deflated starting value. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Crank Yankers Racing said:

Please keep discussions respectful around here. If you cant say anything without coming across heated I just may hit that edit button. 

 

its-so-hot-the-stock-radiator-was-a-bad-

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For you former SCCA guys, how much does it cost to protest an item? Is it a tier'd value based on component, flat fee, ??? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, pintodave said:

For you former SCCA guys, how much does it cost to protest an item? Is it a tier'd value based on component, flat fee, ??? 

 

 

The protest bond is set according to the nature of the protest (it is unique for each mechanical protest). 

In the example above, the officials charged the protesters $1400 per motor for the tear down and inspection.   Since all but one of the motors was deemed illegal, the protesters got almost all of their money back.  

There is also a 25 to 50 dollar filing fee which doesn’t get refunded.  

Edited by Racer28173
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...