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Swap to an automatic... how's the math work in practice?


Gearhead_42
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I know, "email Phil"... but I'm just asking here for now.

 

I'm currently running a swap and taking points both for the engine and transmission, so 75 plus the added horsepower points.

 

If I decided to go with a new swap to make long term maintenance cheaper and used an automatic (torque converter based) transmission, would the math go my way with the "raced as an automatic" bonus?  

 

Engine (50 plus horsepower pts)+transmission(25pts)-auto bonus(75pts)?  In other words, just pay for the horsepower?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

I'm currently running a swap and taking points both for the engine and transmission, so 75 plus the added horsepower points.

 

If I decided to go with a new swap to make long term maintenance cheaper and used an automatic (torque converter based) transmission, would the math go my way with the "raced as an automatic" bonus?  

 

Engine (50 plus horsepower pts)+transmission(25pts)-auto bonus(75pts)?  In other words, just pay for the horsepower?

I think "reducing maintenance" and "automatic" are mutually exclusive :lol:

 

You have the math correct though: if you change the trans to something on the VPI list, it's +25, and then if you are racing with an automatic it is -75. Don't forget the +20 for your oil cooler. 

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1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said:

IF you were to start with an automatic car you would have no transmission swap and be able to  deduct 75 from your  starting value 

 

The Ford trans in a Nissan chassis might be a bit hard to pass off as original :lol:

 

Copy on the trans cooler though, the 75 point "bonus" would let me add it with no problems... 

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On 3/20/2018 at 12:52 PM, red0 said:

 

@Team Infiniti finds your lack of faith disturbing. 

 

On 3/20/2018 at 12:32 PM, enginerd said:

I think "reducing maintenance" and "automatic" are mutually exclusive :lol:

 

Unless some on your team think rev limiters are audible shift lights..  are good at money shifting...  then well...  you only have the trans to maintain... :) 

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Hypothetical situation.  I buy a 500 pt tunachucker with a manuel gear box (made in mexico).  I race it twice and it blows up twice due to oil pressure issues that I can't fix without taking penalty laps.  I need to fix oil pressure issues, but don't want to start in the negative, so I swap in an automatic drivetrain from an automatic version of my car and claim it as a 425 point car due to racing it as an auto.  I show up at tech with my new auto trans, oil cooler, accusump, and aero.  I'm at 500 points.  I haven't discussed this with tech because I'm following the rules.  What does tech say?

Edited by zack_280
edited for clarification
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On 3/22/2018 at 10:48 AM, Black Magic said:

If you fully meet the auto car spec (engine diff, etc) then your 500 point car just got 75 points...alot of which will need to go towards power to make up for the gearing, and cooling to keep the trans in the car....

Alternatively, you could take the 25 points for the trans as a swap and not have to meet all the other specs of the auto car. 

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On 3/20/2018 at 1:06 PM, Gearhead_42 said:

I know, "email Phil"... but I'm just asking here for now.

 

I'm currently running a swap and taking points both for the engine and transmission, so 75 plus the added horsepower points.

 

If I decided to go with a new swap to make long term maintenance cheaper and used an automatic (torque converter based) transmission, would the math go my way with the "raced as an automatic" bonus?  

 

Engine (50 plus horsepower pts)+transmission(25pts)-auto bonus(75pts)?  In other words, just pay for the horsepower?

 

 

Why on earth would yo do that? Auto's suck for road racing. We modified ours and it was still a dog compared to the stick we have now. and they are NOT cheaper. a good auto w/ shift improver kit $250-300 (which you will need) and a good converter $250-500(which you will need) and a heavy-duty cooler $100 (which you will need) cost big bucs. And the trans itself is going to be at least $1000. Unless you are going to get a newer 6-8 speed it's going to feel like it is in the wrong gear. the old 4-5 w/ OD are made for MPGs not racing.

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We had a stock th350 behind a warmed over 350 chevy in our 78 malibu for about 4 years of racing.  Used the internal radiator cooler for the trans.

 

Multiple top 10 finishes in lemons and never once had a trans issue.

 

Stock converter too.

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Sounds like you went the wrong direction?

 

Stock with the lowest stall option available will cost $100-125

 

See ya, and may pass ya @ Daytona :P

we no longer run the auto. It was not good enough out of the turns. we have a T5 now. We used a stock stall... I would not use a cheap aftermarket unit. and we'll see we are doing Daytona next year. The car should run very well on the straights. 

2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

We had a stock th350 behind a warmed over 350 chevy in our 78 malibu for about 4 years of racing.  Used the internal radiator cooler for the trans.

 

Multiple top 10 finishes in lemons and never once had a trans issue.

 

Stock converter too.

we used the AC condenser, it was HUGE, free and held TONS of fluid.

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3 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

we no longer run the auto. It was not good enough out of the turns. we have a T5 now............... and we'll see we are doing Daytona next year. The car should run very well on the straights. 

:o

Thought you were coming to Daytona 18, was trying to get some smack talk on, shucks... well, I have a whole year to talk it up now, lets start @  :

 

45ci would do wonders motivating out of the turns, as for the t5, can't wait to pass it :ph34r::P

 

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6 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

 

we used the AC condenser, it was HUGE, free and held TONS of fluid.

 

Repurposing is one thing, repurposing into a fixed point item is points as I see it and not free.  Should be 20 points claimed.

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2 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Repurposing is one thing, repurposing into a fixed point item is points as I see it and not free.  Should be 20 points claimed.

 

Disagree. If you can repurpose something from your car you are not using and it is legit from your car it should be used as a repurposed item. Kind of like turning a trunk upside down to get a splitter. Repurposing metal to strengthen parts within suspension or a subframe. I applaud people for garage engineering, it is what this series what built on. I challenge people to repurpose ps pumps or other things for their problems they have to pay points for 

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13 minutes ago, Crank Yankers Racing said:

 

Disagree. If you can repurpose something from your car you are not using and it is legit from your car it should be used as a repurposed item. Kind of like turning a trunk upside down to get a splitter. Repurposing metal to strengthen parts within suspension or a subframe. I applaud people for garage engineering, it is what this series what built on. I challenge people to repurpose ps pumps or other things for their problems they have to pay points for 

 

Well then you disagree with what tech has previously assigned as points to my vehicle.  That was a ruling from a few years ago, maybe things have changed as I no longer have that item on my car. 

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9 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Well then you disagree with what tech has previously assigned as points to my vehicle.  That was a ruling from a few years ago, maybe things have changed as I no longer have that item on my car. 

There have been updates to the BCCR in every year. I do disagree with this statement 

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It is another grey area that tech would have to clarify.

 

1. Use non-OE rad was 5 points.  The rad was from an auto Mustang which had the integral auto trans cooler.  Using that integral cooler for engine oil was assigned 20 points, total 25. 

2. Claim auto trans car so the auto rad was OE.  Swap in manual trans for 25 points, was allowed to use cooler in rad for engine oil.  Net gain 25 points.

 

I don't think any of the rules updates have changed anything there.

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Yet another example of the lack of consistent rules interpretation.  And it's not like you have dozens and dozens of people making these interpretations without ever talking to each other.  The tech group is only a handful of people who have all been around the series doing this for quite a while, right?

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22 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

:o

Thought you were coming to Daytona 18, was trying to get some smack talk on, shucks... well, I have a whole year to talk it up now, lets start @  :

 

45ci would do wonders motivating out of the turns, as for the t5, can't wait to pass it :ph34r::P

 

wanted to , one guy selling one house building another and other guy is busy at work so it would only be us 2.  we will be doing NJMP in May and VIR in aug.  The new 305 makes more power than most 350's on the circuit  :ph34r:

19 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Repurposing is one thing, repurposing into a fixed point item is points as I see it and not free.  Should be 20 points claimed.

 

ran it 3 or 4 races never took a points hit as it was part of the car.

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18 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

Well then you disagree with what tech has previously assigned as points to my vehicle.  That was a ruling from a few years ago, maybe things have changed as I no longer have that item on my car. 

The difference was west coast accounting vs east coast. We got dinged for everything.

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