thewheelerZ Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 Looking for some opinions here and thoughts as to whether its even worth pursuing with a possible petition. Should we be able to use adjustable shocks if they are within the 2X limit? It seems like there are a number of cars that have pretty limited options for shocks. For example, the 2002 Nissan Maxima we are building the easy options that I have been able to find are 1) KYB, 2) Coilovers or 3) Koni Yellows The Koni Yellows for example are well within the 2X rule ($98 on AutoZone for Gabriel Ultra and $155 on Koni's website for the fronts, KYBs are listed for $135 - only $20 less than the Koni). Realistically, if its within 2X, why do we really care if its adjustable? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 So quick question - are we talking unmodified Koni, Koni's with the adjusters welded in place/broken off/match marked or any adjustable that meets 2x? I get the idea that we want to keep people away from $$$$ AST's, remote reservoirs racing shocks and stuff like that, but what is the Intent of the current shock rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 Interesting debate. Some cars came with oem adjustable shocks which have to be removed to race in chump.... I would prefer an approved list of shock product lines. People would petition tech to add or not add to the online database. Lots of stuff could be handled this way, including swaps, but the current though was not to go to approved lists rather attempts at catch all rules. Practically speaking you can often swap shocks from other cars...there is less variation than you think. Aim for heavier cars...more damping.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enginerd Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 Since it’s a performance based series instead of price based (many years past) I think the 2x rule should be removed completely... but specific to your topic: bag of worms, don’t open it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotchkis23 Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 46 minutes ago, Black Magic said: Interesting debate. Some cars came with oem adjustable shocks which have to be removed to race in chump.... I would prefer an approved list of shock product lines. People would petition tech to add or not add to the online database. Lots of stuff could be handled this way, including swaps, but the current though was not to go to approved lists rather attempts at catch all rules. Practically speaking you can often swap shocks from other cars...there is less variation than you think. Aim for heavier cars...more damping.... Do they have to be removed if that is how they came from the factory? The VPI # has been stated by staff to be the associated value of the car in "stock form", so I would assume you could keep them as long as you did not decide to switch to an aftermarket adjustable unit. Points are only assigned to non OEM parts, therefore, I would also assume this would give those teams a damn good selection of 2x non-adjustable shocks to choose from as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemy Autosport Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 I think the rule is clear and well written. adjustable, regardless of price is outside the 2X rule as it should be. My thoughts. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) And some cars have very cheap shocks. Allowing adjustables within 2x would give the haves another advantage over the have nots. Non adjustable Billies are outside 2x for me for example. Edited April 5, 2018 by Bandit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotchkis23 Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 So, in the name of "fairness" is it better for the rules to say the only approved manufacturers for shocks to be considered non point adds are KYB, Billstein B?, KONI ?, and ??. That way to try and make it so every make has a chance to upgrade regardless of manufacturer. Then we also say no adjustables what so ever unless running stock units for cars that came with them? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemy Autosport Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 minute ago, hotchkis23 said: So, in the name of "fairness" is it better for the rules to say the only approved manufacturers for shocks to be considered non point adds are KYB, Billstein B?, KONI ?, and ??. That way to try and make it so every make has a chance to upgrade regardless of manufacturer. Then we also say no adjustables what so ever unless running stock units for cars that came with them? I like that idea. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 54 minutes ago, Alchemy Autosport said: I like that idea. I do as well. As a racer this is blasphemy, but does the pointy end really need to get much faster? In the 2:40's at RA is pretty damn fast. T/A was around 2:32 in 69... with 475hp and Donohue at the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewheelerZ Posted April 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Bandit said: And some cars have very cheap shocks. Allowing adjustables within 2x would give the haves another advantage over the have nots. Non adjustable Billies are outside 2x for me for example. Good point. I wonder how many cars are in this camp? This is on the other end of the spectrum from @Alchemy Autosport Where (I assume) there are myriad options for Miata shocks. For the record, I haven't really thought any of this through or have a hard opinion either way. Just noticed with the two different cars we have built that some decent options are available within 2x and adjustable, but otherwise pickings were pretty slim. Was wondering how many other teams may have been thinking the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewheelerZ Posted April 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 hour ago, hotchkis23 said: So, in the name of "fairness" is it better for the rules to say the only approved manufacturers for shocks to be considered non point adds are KYB, Billstein B?, KONI ?, and ??. That way to try and make it so every make has a chance to upgrade regardless of manufacturer. Then we also say no adjustables what so ever unless running stock units for cars that came with them? Could be pretty hard considering kYB are basically OEM replacement and Bilstein/Koni don't nessesarily make bolt on models for all makes. I'm thinking specifically of the Yonaka coilovers we used to run. Non adjustable and pretty decent actually. (The price of the whole kit was well below 2x, so we took points hit for coilovers only). And Neo Motorsports makes a similar looking set for the car we currently run. They could be included, but would the list become unruley? I feel (just anecdotally though) like this would limit more options than it would solve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 We really need to stay out of the adjustable shock rabbit hole. We need to stay with shocks that can't be serviced/custom valved too. No need to run be doing expensive valving and rebuilds on shocks. I personally think hick the current rule is ok. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 25 minutes ago, JDChristianson said: We really need to stay out of the adjustable shock rabbit hole. We need to stay with shocks that can't be serviced/custom valved too. No need to run be doing expensive valving and rebuilds on shocks. I personally think hick the current rule is ok. Agree on the adjustable part. But disagree with your penultimate sentence. If you can have non-adjustable shocks/struts that are within the 2x rule re-valved then they should still be legal. The BCCR does not say otherwise. For our new car, there are good shocks/struts that fall nicely within the 2x rule because a stock OE replacement strut is ~$131 and an aftermarket stock replacement KYB is ~$107. That puts us in the $214-262 range. You can buy a pretty serious strut for that price. And you can re-valve it outside of that cost. Sure, if we could go adjustable, it would be awesome. But those are well outside of 2x. I see no reason to change the existing 2x rules, but don't believe they are as restrictive as some think. And no, you can't run an adjustable shock regardless of price. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, Snorman said: Agree on the adjustable part. But disagree with your penultimate sentence. If you can have non-adjustable shocks/struts that are within the 2x rule re-valved then they should still be legal. The BCCR does not say otherwise. For our new car, there are good shocks/struts that fall nicely within the 2x rule because a stock OE replacement strut is ~$131 and an aftermarket stock replacement KYB is ~$107. That puts us in the $214-262 range. You can buy a pretty serious strut for that price. And you can re-valve it outside of that cost. Sure, if we could go adjustable, it would be awesome. But those are well outside of 2x. I see no reason to change the existing 2x rules, but don't believe they are as restrictive as some think. And no, you can't run an adjustable shock regardless of price. S. So if you can buy a non-adjustable shock at or below the 2x price then have it re-valved without having to account for the improvement, why would you be against an adjustable shock that allows you to do what you propose but within the 2x price? Just curious because the adjustable Koni inserts that are going on my Fiero are cheaper than your 2x strut and certainly cheaper than your 2x strut plus the re-valving cost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 Where does this help everyone? Please find a aftermarket/upgrade any front strut for any year Infiniti J30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Team Infiniti said: Where does this help everyone? Please find a aftermarket/upgrade any front strut for any year Infiniti J30 Non-OEM suspension component: 10 points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snorman Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, mender said: So if you can buy a non-adjustable shock at or below the 2x price then have it re-valved without having to account for the improvement, why would you be against an adjustable shock that allows you to do what you propose but within the 2x price? Just curious because the adjustable Koni inserts that are going on my Fiero are cheaper than your 2x strut and certainly cheaper than your 2x strut plus the re-valving cost. Actually a very good point. I guess I look at it like this...you take 10 points per corner for the adjustability and superior wheel rate bandwidth that a coil over gives you. There should be a similar cost for being able to commensurately adjust shock valving "on the fly". Also, comparing prices for AM parts for a Fiero to the OE/replacement costs for our new car is comparing apples to oranges. Are they within your 2x costs? S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted April 6, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 15 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Where does this help everyone? Please find a aftermarket/upgrade any front strut for any year Infiniti J30 I am still upset that any aftermarket anything is “free”. They are free, and we can’t go back. I guess you can call me a chump conservative. I don’t want anything else “free”. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 17 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said: Where does this help everyone? Please find a aftermarket/upgrade any front strut for any year Infiniti J30 You chose your car. Isn't said enough around here anymore. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, mender said: Non-OEM suspension component: 10 points. So for 0 pts we run what it came with and do decently, makes it hard to listen to all those that want want want... Ban free stuff! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Snorman said: Also, comparing prices for AM parts for a Fiero to the OE/replacement costs for our new car is comparing apples to oranges. Are they within your 2x costs? With KYBs being the only alternative at $89.99/strut, the answer is no - but I do have enough points to go over the 2x for 25 points. Heck, I have enough points for a pair of rear adjustable struts! And I already have them on the shelf beside the front adjustable Konis, left over from when I was allowed to run them in 2013. Edited April 6, 2018 by mender 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, mender said: With KYBs being the only alternative at $89.99/strut, the answer is no - but I do have enough points to go over the 2x for 25 points. Heck, I have enough points for a pair of rear adjustable struts! And I already have them on the shelf beside the front adjustable Konis, left over from when I was allowed to run them in 2013. P.S. Those Koni struts were within 2x at the time (2013) but are no longer in production. Can I send them to Koni and have them disable the adjustment when they re-valve them to Koni Yellow standards (or better!)? Within 2x and non-adjustable, right? Or would I be accused of rules lawyering? Edited April 6, 2018 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said: Where does this help everyone? Please find a aftermarket/upgrade any front strut for any year Infiniti J30 You know you can get koni cartridges and put them in your strut housing... Some billies as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Infiniti Posted April 6, 2018 Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 Nothing oe or application specific, perhaps, some other model adapted, 1st gen 300z is close... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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