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What is an alumimum radiator


Xph
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So I thought this was sort of settled science, but I couldn't find a thread specifically on it...

 

I am wondering for those taking the FPV of a radiator swap what is the difference between

 

  • radiator, aluminum non-OE: 20 pts (provided retail value of radiator under $300)

 

  • radiator, non-aluminum, non-OE: 5 pts

 

Full disclosure, we are taking our radiator change under swap math, so this doesnt impact my TCV, but I was wondering what is the typical tech interpretation of this..

 

My understanding was this was applied in the current market where almost all radiators have aluminum cores, to be an "end tank" differentiation...   

 

We are using a 94 VW rabbit radiator, its aluminum core with plastic end tanks, so was our stock OE radiator...  my understanding of the current rule "interpretation" is that non OE radiators with aluminum end tanks were 20 points, where radiators with steel, plastic or copper end tanks would be 5...

 

Again like my last thread, I would really appreciate teams who have been through tech with a radiator swap to chime in with how it was handled.   and if the rule is interpreted as I suspect, I would then maybe ask chumpcar to tweak the rule language, or be more in favor of something like a troy petition to just remove the aluminum vs non aluminum from the rule... and have one single FPV.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, cshay said:

 

Um, Ok.  I'll leave that alone.

 

The material difference is in the core.  Many are still copper.

 

From that thread I linked (not sure on the validity of the source)

 

On 11/18/2013 at 12:31 PM, Racedad said:

All OE are aluminum cored now.

 

 

 

 

The rule refers to end tank style with $5.00 oe and oe equivalent replacement units being exclusively plastic end tank and $35.00 racing/high performance style stuff having all aluminum construction including the end tanks.

 

 

I am sure there are some copper cored radiators on some of the cars on the VPI list, I am also sure you can still by copper cored radiators...  Just wondering if this statement by @Racedad still holds true in todays tech...   "The Rule Refers to End Tanks Style"

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18 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

yea exactly.   hoses and adapters to the old radiator I get for the swap, all in part of the 1500 dollar thing.   A different radiator?  That seems a stretch for sure.

 

 

On the swap, its either a non OE radiator or a new intake...  I felt using a smaller OE style radiator was in the spirit of the rule, guess I will find out at our first event with this car if tech agrees.

 

The intake and the radiator cant occupy the same space, so one or the other must be replaced..  seriously, swapping a honda OE radiator from an oe radiator from an 84 rabbit (from rock auto) has you concerned?  I seriously doubt I will have any issues with that in tech, but you are entitled to your opinions.

 

I am more questioning the general point value assigned to tech radiator swaps, and how the "aluminum" portion is being interpreted by tech.

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2 minutes ago, Xph said:

 

On the swap, its either a non OE radiator or a new intake...  I felt using a smaller OE style radiator was in the spirit of the rule, guess I will find out at our first event with this car if tech agrees.

 

The intake and the radiator cant occupy the same space, so one or the other must be replaced..  seriously, swapping a honda OE radiator from an oe radiator from an 84 rabbit (from rock auto) has you concerned?  I seriously doubt I will have any issues with that in tech, but you are entitled to your opinions.

 

I am more questioning the general point value assigned to tech radiator swaps, and how the "aluminum" portion is being interpreted by tech.

That's good I suppose if it just wont fit.  Probably not an issue in this case but thanks for letting me have my opinions.  I have very little anymore.  You could always move the original.  I honestly guess I don't care, there certainly are bigger things that could be getting out of control.  

 

Aren't those vw radiators pretty efficient?  You make it sound like your really taking a sacrifice using it. 

 

The tech guys might be good ones to ask how they interpret a rule.
 

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27 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

That's good I suppose if it just wont fit.  Probably not an issue in this case but thanks for letting me have my opinions.  I have very little anymore.  You could always move the original.  I honestly guess I don't care, there certainly are bigger things that could be getting out of control.  

 

Aren't those vw radiators pretty efficient?  You make it sound like your really taking a sacrifice using it. 

 

The tech guys might be good ones to ask how they interpret a rule.
 

 

So surely I could zip tie my current radiator on the other side of my bumper...   I could probably cut my intake, and weld in a notch...  the volume and area of the new radiator is only slightly less than my OE, it just fits up in the current radiator support area, keeping my alternator and intake from occupying the same space...   I might be able to switch to a half size radiator, but its one of those things, the disc brake setup I run with comes from a car that didnt have a half size radiator as a oe option, so we did put some time and thought into this, and felt that the radiator in the front was in the spirit of the swap rule...

 

It does match then with the other thread I started regarding the fan, which of course, our OE electric fan and shroud would be a tight fit and not really work on this new radiator, I would rather run a simple 8" electric fan "just in case" but no fan is probably required.

 

I am planning to include the cost of the fan, and radiator in our swap cost, if we have to take a 5 point hit, I dont see a problem with that either, if I had to take a 20 point hit, I would choose a different radiator that was built as a direct fit, as it would be less fabrication...

 

I just think it would be a stretch to some how think that a radiator wasnt required, our requirement is due to space and mounting, not based on increased performance; although honestly I have no actual cooling data to compare a 90's civic to a 80;s rabbit radiator, nor their modern OE reproduction differences just picked it based on dimensions and hose locations..  

 

I also respect that tech will be the final determination in if my swap part was for a performance advantage and therefore points, vs a fitment requirement and therefore part of the required adapters.

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14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

All aluminum vs plastic tanks on aluminum.

 

Explorer plastic tank alum rad in our infiniti swap was viewed as $5pts

 

 

 

Thank you for confirming the current interpretation is based on end tanks and not core material.

 

 

FWIW...   I do think the wording of the rule should be clarified, it also seems a bit silly to me to differentiate between the two, (maybe the points difference should somehow be based on 1x of the cost of OE or something)...  but thats a different thread subject

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10 minutes ago, Xph said:

 

 

Thank you for confirming the current interpretation is based on end tanks and not core material.

 

 

FWIW...   I do think the wording of the rule should be clarified, it also seems a bit silly to me to differentiate between the two, (maybe the points difference should somehow be based on 1x of the cost of OE or something)...  but thats a different thread subject

Careful. Do you really want folks to be able to spend oe dealership prices on whatever radiator they want ?   

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Just now, JDChristianson said:

Careful. Do you really want folks to be able to spend oe dealership prices on whatever radiator they want ?   

 

I was suggesting using aftermarket prices like we do for shocks.   IE if you pick a different radiator thats the same price or within 2x or whatever as your autozone price, vs ones outside that range, if we must have 2 values for radiators...  would seem to make more sense to me...  (no steelership prices aren't appropriate)

 

but I (like I suspect all who have swapped radiators) can deal with plastic end tanks as the delimiter, no real issue, its light, just slightly less durable, and a bit harder to mount being that you cant weld on tabs or studs or move hose locations...

 

but again, that's a whole different thread I would think.

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At one point, the way it was worded led me to understand that a radiator you can yank out of something at the salvage yard was 5 points.  An aftermarket radiator not meant to be a 100% stock OE replacement was 20-points.  I think the wording has changed a bit, but I haven't gone back to see if that is the case or if I just misread it before.  What are you stuffing the K20 in, a CRX?

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40 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 I believe intent was to keep people from using improved cooling via CR brand radiator or even an all aluminum non-original type of construction.

Yes the wording is weird but intent was original equipment type of radiator versus after market.

 

 

20170511_013807.thumb.jpg.d1314aeb3417d95b1493c4beb081d584.jpg

 

🤤

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As an ASE certified technician and parts man I can say that the stock radiators with plastic tanks are not very reliable. If your car already has 50 to 60000 miles on it you might want to replace that plastic radiator. What is more, in the type of racing you guys do you are going to bump and grind (not intentionally of course) and the radiator is right in the front sight. Also remember rocks, rubber and dirt can easily puncture a radiator. A leaky radiator will easily send you into the weeds, so it is a safety item also.

I am working on a blog on cooling systems for racing and performance cars that should be up in  a few days. Get in touch with me if you need some well seasoned advice or a new radiator. There are radiators that may be a bit more expensive than those at Autozone but they will last several seasons.

PS: Do not bother with four row radiators. Those are made for high speed cars like NASCAR Cup Cars. They will make your engine run hotter because they are thicker and the air cannot get through. If I get enough interest I can write some info for your type of racing and save you some DNFs.

Jean Genibrel

appliedspeed.com

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Hummmm, it seems to me that you need to nail down the rules for stock radiators and aftermarket radiators before you can decide what to put in your car. also I assume "aluminum" means aluminum core. I am not aware of copper radiators being manufactured any longer except for special applications like older cars. Stay away from full on race radiators like C&R's, even though I sell them, because they are for high speed, high dollar cars.

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

OEM style radiator with plastic tanks other than stock for your car = + 5 points 

Aftermarket radiator aluminum budget priced under $300. = + 20 points , if it looks high dollar have receipt to prove it's not . If you cannot show the cost tech will assign a value could be 50 points or so .. 

 Stock radiator is the one or replacement to stock that came in it , same size ,same openings ,same thickness, 

ANYTHING else is not stock and + 5 points ..   what else needs to be said ? 

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On 4/27/2018 at 9:15 PM, Bandit said:

Pretty sure the 70 W30 had a four row from the factory as it was an air car. Sold it so can't go look, but 4 rows are not Nascar only.

If you had ac, yes it did. I have a 70 w30 as well. 

 

It was 4 rows of about 5/16 tube with what seemed like an inch between rows for fins. Our cup rads have thin tubes and maybe 1/4" between tubes for fins, and fin counts easily double that of vintage 4 row coolers. If you can get the pressure differential needed the cooling is insane, but you would most likely need 100mph with great ducting to do so....

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On 4/30/2018 at 7:34 AM, Black Magic said:

If you had ac, yes it did. I have a 70 w30 as well. 

Same moniker on realoldspower years ago?

 

If so, quality guy with a quality car.

 

Read that forum a lot 10 years ago. Had Stolpa put my stock appearing engine together.

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