Published Swap Weights vs. Post Swap Power to Weight

[hotchkis23]

So the inconsistent weight thread got me thinking, why not cap car weights within a certain % of the swap weight spit out by the calculator?

 

Yes, I understand that taking weight out of a car is something the only the truly serious people will take to an extreme, however, the calculator is, at least in theory, providing us with the expected race weight of our cars prior to swapping and is therefore assumes we have taken out a substantial amount of weight and added in the cage and other items necessary to be a legal race car. 

 

My thought would be to limit a swapped car to maintain a certain -%, lets for this sake, say -2% of the published weight to remain legal, otherwise they are required to apply the swap formula to their specific swap with the actual weight of their as raced car.  FYI, we are a swapped car and our cars weight is almost dead on the swap formula weight, but there are some that are not even close.

 

My thinking this goes in the same line as the current proposal do disallow teams to modify engines post swap.  We already know that there are teams out there that have made their cars extremely light, and hats off to them for doing that.  However, if you have lets say, taken a car an gotten to 500lbs. less than the swap formula weight and then installed an engine that gets you to 13:1 in the formula, where does that actually put you in the current set up?

 

I am not saying that people should not be allowed to take weight out of their cars, I am all for it, I just think this is a way to keep swapped cars a little bit more inline with the intent of the rule.

 

What do the masses think of this idea?

 

 

[Andrew D Johnson]

So non swapped cars could do unlimited weight reduction, but swapped cars cannot? 

Every race I have been to this year has been won by non swapped cars. 

 

Why make a problem out of something when there is no problem?

 

Why not force teams to follow the already written rules such as 4.5.6 instead?

Edited May 3, 2018 by red0

[Black Magic]

I work in a pro race series with weight limits. People would just ballast up to get a lower cg and better weight distribution. Might be closer straightaway performance but the good cars will still have an advantage. I would suggest we audit a few fast cars each race for a quick weight, and adjust the champ listed weight for swaps and maybe vpi if the actual is way different than assumed race weight for a particular kind of car.

 

Ever see an exhaust weigh more than 100 lbs....i have.....

[JDChristianson]

31 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

I work in a pro race series with weight limits. People would just ballast up to get a lower cg and better weight distribution. Might be closer straightaway performance but the good cars will still have an advantage. I would suggest we audit a few fast cars each race for a quick weight, and adjust the champ listed weight for swaps and maybe vpi if the actual is way different than assumed race weight for a particular kind of car.

 

Ever see an exhaust weigh more than 100 lbs....i have.....

There used to be a rule against adding ballast.  Is that gone now too?

[Andrew D Johnson]

1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

There used to be a rule against adding ballast.  Is that gone now too?

 

There is "ballast" and then there is ........."Ballast". 

 

If we are going to weigh cars, they need to be weighed "as raced", including driver. Who cares what the car weighs sitting in the paddock. 

[TiredBirds]

43 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

I work in a pro race series with weight limits. People would just ballast up to get a lower cg and better weight distribution. Might be closer straightaway performance but the good cars will still have an advantage. I would suggest we audit a few fast cars each race for a quick weight, and adjust the champ listed weight for swaps and maybe vpi if the actual is way different than assumed race weight for a particular kind of car.

 

Ever see an exhaust weigh more than 100 lbs....i have.....

Yes, ours is NOT light. 

[Black Magic]

14 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

There used to be a rule against adding ballast.  Is that gone now too?

 

Define "ballast".... In a way that stops 100lbs exhausts without taking cars fully apart to weigh them.....

 

Not saying i am strongly opposed to the idea of min weight, but i don't think you would get the exact outcome you are looking for. It was just a warning.

 

It would make 50% noseweight easier to achieve on the neon....

[Jer]

So the teams that work harder get punished?

[hotchkis23]

14 minutes ago, Jer said:

So the teams that work harder get punished?

If we are using predetermined race weights for cars, wouldn't it make sense find the an acceptable minimum possible weight a car can go to be considered the post swap weight?  Then, as suggested give teams a certain -% from there that they can go.  There are some car weights in the formula that don't seem to be quite in line with actual as raced weights.

 

Isn't the goal of the swap formula to balance a cars performance based on its new power to weight? 

Edited May 3, 2018 by hotchkis23

[Black Magic]

15 minutes ago, Jer said:

So the teams that work harder get punished?

 

Work harder as in more time with plasma cutter, or work harder by finding cars on list with higher champcar listed weight than they actually have and unbolting a 100 lbs seat?

 

I was suggesting if tech looks at a fully gutted and plasma swiss cheese sc300, and equally cut up miata, and finds the sc300 to be 25% under champ weight and the miata 5% under chump listed weight (from swap math) then the chumpcar weight for sc300 needs work.

 

Sc300 shows up with door cards and dash still in it, and is 20% over chump weight vs the gutted miata 5% below....then thats on the sc300 team to start trying.

 

With exception of luxury cars and a few glaring examples (swap chump weight for a e30 is 2700 lbs?) I think the we are already halfway close. I don't care for a series with scales, although working hard would still give you better weight distribution. I just think as we discuss power to weight, fuel to weight, etc the estimate of weight should be roughly equal for all cars prepped to a similar level of reduction.

[Jer]

In my old Miata, I spent a lot of time with a cutting wheel and a sawzall.  I took 200 pounds out of the car without affecting it's integrity, and it probably took me 24 hours of work, total.  My hard work made my car better.  In my swapped Miata, I have done the same and more.  If we were going to apply this logic, then stock cars need to be held to the same standard?  So if all the cars are held to this standard, then effectively what have we done?  Just playing devil's advocate here.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jer

[JDChristianson]

2 minutes ago, Jer said:

In my old Miata, I spent a lot of time with a cutting wheel and a sawzall.  I took 200 pounds out of the car without affecting it's integrity, and it probably took me 24 hours of work, total.  My hard work made my car better.  In my swapped Miata, I have done the same and more.  If we were going to apply this logic, then stock cars need to be held to the same standard?  So if all the cars are held to this standard, then effectively what have we done?  Just playing devil's advocate here.  

it can be all cars that'd be fair.   

[TiredBirds]

why don't we just base swaps up on a straigh up formula?  100-149hp - free,  150-199 hp 25 ponits,  200-249hp 50, 250-299hp 75, 300-up 100 points (or some other point.hp ratio) all the weight vs HP vs fuel vs unicorns is goofy. 

[hotchkis23]

3 minutes ago, Jer said:

In my old Miata, I spent a lot of time with a cutting wheel and a sawzall.  I took 200 pounds out of the car without affecting it's integrity, and it probably took me 24 hours of work, total.  My hard work made my car better.  In my swapped Miata, I have done the same and more.  If we were going to apply this logic, then stock cars need to be held to the same standard?  So if all the cars are held to this standard, then effectively what have we done?  Just playing devil's advocate here.  

Serious question, as we race basically the same car.  How far below the 2048 race weight are you that is claimed for a Miata? I know ours is right about at that weight, that is including the swap to the ecotech.  .   Do all stock cars in race trim have equal power to weight?  Are most stock cars able to get their builds to a level below the 13.5:1, where, for most, the swap formula goes off the charts?   Again, appreciate the conversation.

 

[hotchkis23]

2 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

why don't we just base swaps up on a straigh up formula?  100-149hp - free,  150-199 hp 25 ponits,  200-249hp 50, 250-299hp 75, 300-up 100 points (or some other point.hp ratio) all the weight vs HP vs fuel vs unicorns is goofy. 

That means our Miata can get our current swap hp for 25 pts. instead of 110?  Sure, then allow teams to buy fuel too.

[TiredBirds]

4 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

That means our Miata can get our current swap hp for 25 pts. instead of 110?  Sure, then allow teams to buy fuel too.

well the point thing was just an example, somebody can come up w/ a more accurate scale. How sorry is the stock motor anyway? 

[hotchkis23]

1 minute ago, TiredBirds said:

well the point thing was just an example, somebody can come up w/ a more accurate scale. How sorry is the stock motor anyway? 

116hp in ours or 128 in a 1.8.  Didn't mean to come across as a jerk either, just kinda made me laugh.

Edited May 3, 2018 by hotchkis23

[Black Magic]

13 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Serious question, as we race basically the same car.  How far below the 2048 race weight are you that is claimed for a Miata? I know ours is right about at that weight, that is including the swap to the ecotech.  .   Do all stock cars in race trim have equal power to weight?  Are most stock cars able to get their builds to a level below the 13.5:1, where, for most, the swap formula goes off the charts?   Again, appreciate the conversation.

 

E30 champ swap weight 2731, edmunds weight for a 90 325is is 2845. 

 

Miata champ weight is 2048 for swap. Edmunds weight for 97 base is 2293.

 

Anyone really believe the miata has twice the weight to lose (in what 2/3rds the volume).

 

Does that answer your question?

[Jer]

I got my current Miata down to 1980 lbs empty (happy to have others weigh it).  I worked hard to get it there, and I can probably get another 40 pounds out in a weekend if I was so inclined.  I'm not.  In race trim with full fuel, then, my race weight would be around 2060.  That's not far of the published race weight.  Just a point of reference.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jer

[JDChristianson]

7 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

E30 champ swap weight 2731, edmunds weight for a 90 325is is 2845. 

 

Miata champ weight is 2048 for swap. Edmunds weight for 97 base is 2293.

 

Anyone really believe the miata has twice the weight to lose (in what 2/3rds the volume).

 

Does that answer your question?

Thanks for pointing that out.  Works better coming from non miata guy.  

2 minutes ago, Jer said:

I got my current Miata down to 1980 lbs empty (happy to have others weigh it).  I worked hard to get it there, and I can probably get another 40 pounds out in a weekend if I was so inclined.  I'm not.  In race trim with full fuel, then, my race weight would be around 2060.  That's not far of the published race weight.  Just a point of reference.  

Gee I guess we worked hard too then.     The little baby miata just doesn't have as much to loose.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by JDChristianson

[Jer]

1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  Works better coming from non miata guy.  

Gee I guess we worked hard too then.  

I think a lot of teams do work hard.  Compare this series to 8 years ago, and damn everyone upped their game so dramatically. 

[TiredBirds]

46 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

116hp in ours or 128 in a 1.8.  Didn't mean to come across as a jerk either, just kinda made me laugh.

oh you didn't...  I was just wondering what the base for the Miata's was.  

[Jer]

19 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

oh you didn't...  I was just wondering what the base for the Miata's was.  

At the crank, the 1.6 is usually at 115 BHP.  For the 1.8s, it varies slightly from year to year but in the 131 to 133bhp I believe.  That's at the crank.  Where the Miata in stock form is weak is in torque.  Coming out of tight turns it's dreadful.  That's also where the swap helps the most, not necessarily in raw HP.  

[mender]

1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

why don't we just base swaps up on a straigh up formula?  100-149hp - free,  150-199 hp 25 ponits,  200-249hp 50, 250-299hp 75, 300-up 100 points (or some other point.hp ratio) all the weight vs HP vs fuel vs unicorns is goofy. 

"Alex, I'll take "Wicked Fiero Engine Swaps" for 100, please."

 

The reason that weight is so necessary is that the weight difference in cars is very large. Your car wouldn't have a chance, and I don't think you'd like that. Imagine a 299 hp Miata that weighs 2000 lbs for 75 points.

Edited May 3, 2018 by mender

[mender]

On 5/3/2018 at 9:31 AM, Jer said:

I got my current Miata down to 1980 lbs empty (happy to have others weigh it).  I worked hard to get it there, and I can probably get another 40 pounds out in a weekend if I was so inclined.  I'm not.  In race trim with full fuel, then, my race weight would be around 2060.  That's not far of the published race weight.  Just a point of reference.  

My Fiero is probably about 100 pounds heavier than it could be at 2600 lbs race weight, but that's right on the money with 2512 being the list. If I were to do a weekend of work it would be at the list weight.

 

However, there are self-reported race weights that are a good 200 lbs lighter than the list weight and IIRC they didn't go to extremes in lightening the car.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by mender