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The power steering juxtaposition


Ron_e
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The forum is pretty quiet so I thought I would see if I am looking at this correctly.  It has been stated previously that:

 

The points assigned to a part include items to make it work.  An example might be adding an oil cooler so the brackets, hoses, and even the filter adapter plate would be included in the 20 points for adding an oil cooler.

Adding power steering to a car has previously been stated as driver comfort therefore zero points.

Also previously stated, there is no limit on line length (except for fuel line) so if one needed a power steering cooler they could run an unlimited length of line back and forth in front of the rad.

 

If a car did not have OEM power steering a unit can be added points free.  If that power steering unit came from a car that also had a cooler then the cooler would be considered as part of making the unit work and no additional points even though a power steering cooler is being added to a car that previously had none.

 

My Mustang had an OE power steering cooler that was just a simple tube passing twice in front of the rad - it was quite ineffective.  I went to Pick-N-Pull and found a nice shiny finned one on a Crown Vic and put that in my car.  Tech has assigned it 20 points as a cooler.  I did not go with passing the bare line 20 times in front of the rad to look like a piece of crap - because the rest of our car is so awesome!  Actually I just didn't want to make it look worse.

 

If my car did not have OE power steering then I could add the entire Crown Vic pump, lines, steering rack, and cooler points free.  Since my car did have an OE power steering cooler, the fact that I changed it means I get charged 20 points.  Correct? :wacko:

 

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I would use the auto trans cooler in the radiator if i were you. Cleanest install and should be zero points, since all replacement rads i have seen have the trans cooler loop. 

 

I wouldn't think the power steering fluid would get hot enough during a race to need the cooler, they are usually more of a slow speed in town sort of thing.

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We have an aftermarket aluminum rad that we pay 20 points for.  Also in the past I did inquire about reusing that trans cooler and was told it would be 20 points if we plumbed it in, that was a few years ago though, however we could not go that route now.  

 

With the stock cooler after just one race new fluid would go to looking black and smelling of smoke.  With the improved cooler we can run multiple races without changing the fluid.  

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@Ron_e  I agree with your assessment that Tech got it wrong...  did you email Phil and see if you could get clarification...   I would think a power steering fluid cooler would be zero points...   you could of course run an ac condenser or heater core if tech says its points, and re-purposing either of those is zero, but I would save the heater core for your oil cooler.

 

I agree the cooler for a driver comfort item is also driver comfort...   IE you could switch to an electric power steering system (we have one for an AutoCross car, but dont need anything like it for the big track)...  that would be a zero point driver comfort item, powered column would also get rid of some stuff in your engine bay and the drag from the power steering pump..

 

The only place where I could see a power steering system becoming an issue would be a hydro-boost brake setup, but I would imagine even power brakes would fall under driver comfort; not sure on that one though.

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I am surprised that adding power steering to a car that didn't have oem equipment is free.

 

I know this is driver comfort, but my stance is always that there is too much free stuff.... 

 

A cooler helps the car survive being abused.  Therefore, it will add some performance.

 

I have no idea what tech says in this situation, but I am curious as to the outcome.

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Serious question, how does power steering fluid overheat or burn? It's not like it takes a lot of effort to steer with any sort of road speed anyway, so what happens that it would get so hot at racing speed but not highway speeds? It's not under a lot of load is it? Is it because of the pump speed?

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1 minute ago, karman1970 said:

Serious question, how does power steering fluid overheat or burn? It's not like it takes a lot of effort to steer with any sort of road speed anyway, so what happens that it would get so hot at racing speed but not highway speeds? It's not under a lot of load is it? Is it because of the pump speed?

 

I don't generally spend lots of time at 6000 rpm when I'm on the highway......

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SIX THOUSAND R P M :lol::lol::lol:, we can go there but fuel economy...

 

It is the constant movement that gets it hot.  I hardly ever see the fluid level in my truck move but when I used it at the ice driving school for awhile it overflowed, there is very little resistance on the ice.  Also the Ford pump is probably very inefficient with poor tolerances like everything else in the car.

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2 hours ago, karman1970 said:

Serious question, how does power steering fluid overheat or burn? It's not like it takes a lot of effort to steer with any sort of road speed anyway, so what happens that it would get so hot at racing speed but not highway speeds? It's not under a lot of load is it? Is it because of the pump speed?

The cornering forces on some cars require a fair bit of steering effort to generate. High caster, front end weight, big sticky tires, offset wheels, understeer, all contribute to the work load the power steering pump has to help with. 

 

Pull up right alongside a curb and stop then turn the wheel so that the front tire is pressing firmly against the curb, rev the engine up to 4000 rpm and hold it like that for 5 minutes. :)

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On 5/8/2018 at 12:13 AM, mender said:

The cornering forces on some cars require a fair bit of steering effort to generate. High caster, front end weight, big sticky tires, offset wheels, understeer, all contribute to the work load the power steering pump has to help with. 

 

Pull up right alongside a curb and stop then turn the wheel so that the front tire is pressing firmly against the curb, rev the engine up to 4000 rpm and hold it like that for 5 minutes. :)

Absolutely agree here.  At a test day at NCM once we removed the power steering (completely drained rack, created a bypass loop and all) the steering feel was terrible!  You could suddenly feel all of the give and weakness of the fox mustang front end.  It was like steering the titanic, crank the wheel and wait for the front end, like half a second delay....when we reinstalled and bled the system, the driver went out, reported the car felt awesome, then we checked the fluid after his 30 min run, the dipstick on the cap was partially gone (melted away)and the rest looked like a swirly coffee stir stick! Fluid stank to high heaven.  (Guess we still had some air trapped after our quick bleed) We replaced the fluid, bled once more and have been good ever since (48+ race hours).  But we do change the fluid after each event, and we run the stock cooler.

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On 5/7/2018 at 3:04 PM, Xph said:

you could of course run an ac condenser or heater core if tech says its points, and re-purposing either of those is zero, but I would save the heater core for your oil cooler.

 

Serious question, I promise I am not trolling, I thought it was determined on some of these value add things (like oil coolers) there was no re-purposing parts? An oil cooler is an oil cooler, regardless of where the parts came from? 

 

And I agree with the general consensus that if you are going to allow someone to add something in the name of driver comfort, then that part/system essentially becomes open so there should not be a charge if someone who already has said item wants to add a cooler to it. That is how we valued our p.s. cooler, 0 points. I don't even know that we need it, but it can't hurt.  

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So if I'm reading this correct, adding power steering to a vechile that didn't have it is zero points but running a cooler on an existing system is points?   I run a small power steering cooler on my fbody the point value has been inconsistent over the years. Watkins glen 2016: cooler was assigned 10 points by Phil.  Daytona 2017: cooler was upped to 20 points as Phil told me it was a standalone cooler and therefore took the same points as an oil cooler.  I tried arguing it but was told if I didn't want to take points for it to re-purpose the trans cooler in the radiator.  So as of right now my power steering cooler is 20 points.  Without the cooler we lose power steering towards the end of a 2 hr stint.

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17 minutes ago, Ws6 Mike said:

So if I'm reading this correct, adding power steering to a vechile that didn't have it is zero points but running a cooler on an existing system is points? 

 

That is the way it used to be. As of late 17 and into 2018, people have not been assigned points for p.s. coolers. 

 

I do not know how many people emailed or talked to Phil about it, but I was one of them. Again, the argument being that someone is adding p.s. to a car that did not have it (I didn't pick your car argument...) in the name of driver comfort and is not being charged points, then how can a cooler be value add if it is a driver comfort system. 

 

@Ws6 Mike what are you using for fluid? I'm using Amsoil p.s. fluid and it literally looks new after multiple events, and I am running a super tiny cooler. I have not tried it without the cooler so I do not have a good baseline to compare, but I think mine would survive a race with the Amsoil and no cooler. At 2018 annual tech (Daytona event for us) I was prepared to loop the system and bypass it if I was going to get dinged the 20 points, but it was assessed at 0. 

 

 

Edited by pintodave
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1 hour ago, pintodave said:

 

Serious question, I promise I am not trolling, I thought it was determined on some of these value add things (like oil coolers) there was no re-purposing parts? An oil cooler is an oil cooler, regardless of where the parts came from? 

 

And I agree with the general consensus that if you are going to allow someone to add something in the name of driver comfort, then that part/system essentially becomes open so there should not be a charge if someone who already has said item wants to add a cooler to it. That is how we valued our p.s. cooler, 0 points. I don't even know that we need it, but it can't hurt.  

 

So I havent done it, so I also could be wrong, but I thought it has been determined specifically by tech that re-purposing a cooler or any part that came on the car (that was not removed for some other approved mod) was allowed...

 

IE if you remove sheet metal from a door skin, you can re-locate that sheet metal...   but if you replace your gas tank with a cell, you cannot replace your gas tank...   this has also been covered with like for like materials...  IE you can cut out your floorpan, and replace it with a similar thickness material, or remove your doors and replace them with sheet metal of the same size, material and thickness without points....     I was pretty sure there was a thread where Phil specifically said he meant to allow re purposing coolers...   

 

We plan to make our heater core an oil cooler, but are in the midst of a swap, so we have to nail down lots of other bits first and this configuration hasn't gone through tech, so we need to understand how our swap math works and is received by tech before we make additional modifications (see radiator and radiator fan threads lol).

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17 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

I do not know how many people emailed or talked to Phil about it, but I was one of them. Again, the argument being that someone is adding p.s. to a car that did not have it (I didn't pick your car argument...) in the name of driver comfort and is not being charged points, then how can a cooler be value add if it is a driver comfort system. 

 

 

 

Yes we added a Prius Electric power steering system to our car after we went to the 10" wheels in the front...  (with a quickener)...   we did it for some local track days and such but emailed tech about it before we made the change...   we were told it was driver comfort and zero points...   we ultimately decided the system was more complicated than we liked for chump, and was not really necessary for the larger tracks, so we never raced (chump) with it.

Edited by Xph
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Re: repurposed parts for an oil cooler... Interesting. I'd like an official clarification on that, if so then I'll do the same thing and save some points. But now you have the issue of how to value the oil filter adapter/relocation items. The 20 points for the cooler was including the entire package as a whole, so now if someone uses a repurposed cooler, should there be a points charge, say 10 points, for the adapters, lines, etc? Just spit balling. I really don't care either way as long as everyone is on the same page and being charged the same points when they roll through tech.

 

Same with the p.s. addition for 0 points, makes no difference to me I just want to the ruling to make sense and be consistent. 

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2 hours ago, pintodave said:

 

That is the way it used to be. As of late 17 and into 2018, people have not been assigned points for p.s. coolers. 

 

I do not know how many people emailed or talked to Phil about it, but I was one of them. Again, the argument being that someone is adding p.s. to a car that did not have it (I didn't pick your car argument...) in the name of driver comfort and is not being charged points, then how can a cooler be value add if it is a driver comfort system. 

 

Phil confirmed for me on Sept 14, 2017 that our non-OE power steering cooler was to be 20 points. Not late enough?

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@pintodave running the redline power steering fluid.  Cooler is small maybe 4 x 3 mounted behind the radiator.  Ran the first race at charlotte in '15 without it and boiled the fluid and killed the pump, been on ever since.  I'll update this after then glen and see what the value is this year.

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We tried various fluids and smoked them all in less than a race even with a cooler.  Bill G who used to be the west region director and prior to that sold high performance fluids, he recommended Joe Gibbs power steering fluid.  Since then we have only added as necessary and change once per year.

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2 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

Nope, Sebring was later in sept than that when I forgot my log book and had to re-tech 😂

 

Darn, missed it by a few days.  If only there was a tech committee that had made a ruling years ago, published it, then if there were any changes published those as well.  Hitting tech a few days early cost me 20 points.  :mellow:

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just to update this: Apparently im not cool enough for the free power steering cooler club.  Was given a value of 20 points for it at watkins glen last weekend.  Not sure who the tech guy was, but when I mentioned the disparity he ask Mike Chisek and I was told that any fluid cooler is 20 points.  Hopefully we get a written clarification on this in next years rules.  

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I know complaining on this forum will do nothing without a petition, but I'm just venting ; ). I truly believe all fluid coolers , oiling upgrades etc. should be zero points. Blowing a motor or anything else is a big expense, and I wouldn't wish that on my worst rival. I hope I beat someone based on car prep and driver skill, not because their PS crapped the bed partway through a race.

 

I really hope that the petitions I've seen go through for this. Seems very "Lemony" to me to want other people's cars to grenade, which is one of a couple reasons I have no interest in that series any longer.

 

Sorry, carry on, I'm off my soap box now ; )

Edited by UglyBoost91
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my shoulder still hurts from not having power steering at the glen this weekend.   

 

The car has better feel and is more reliable.   Somebody who gets more reliable by adding a cooler has an advantage that should cost points in my opinion.

 

As for oil coolers from radiators from auto cars in use on manual cars -- pick if you want the points for the trans swap or the cooler IMHO.

Edited by theblue
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