Swap list weight criteria

[mender]

We now have the csv list (unofficial) to look at and check for accuracy. We also have a procedure for submitting changes/updates.

 

Should the general configuration of the car as-raced match the configuration that the swap list weight was taken from? Should a non-turbo VPi be used with a turbo weight? Should the transmission selection match that as-raced car (manual vs automatic)?

 

Can we get a list of the criteria used to sort through the various weights given for a particular car?

[Bill Strong]

Pick the heaviest weight.

 

Use automobile-catalog.

If not there, use Edmonds.

If not there scour to be web. Look for experts.

 

 

[dimitri.mariutto]

1990 BMW 325i Convertible E30 (M20B25) curb weight = 3078 * 0.90 = 2770 lbs. VPI has the adjusted curb weight at 2731 so since this positively affects E30 owners, I am expecting this change to go into effect immediately?

 

Source: http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1990/1494440/bmw_325i_a_convertible.html

 

Oh, that is with a 4.10 diff, cheers.

[mender]

1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

Pick the heaviest weight.

 

Doesn't matter what the car actually is (coupe, sedan, convertible) or what year it is as long as it's the same generation?

[mender]

If I want to submit a weight correction for a '93 W124 Mercedes, do I use the E320 cabrio at 3770 lbs, the 500E at 3858 lbs or the limousine at 3880 lbs? If I use the 500E as the example, do I get to use 322 hp as the stock hp and thereby take the minimum 50 points for the LS1 swap into my '89 '95 300d with the factory 90 litre fuel tank?

Edited May 23, 2018 by mender

[Ron_e]

Yessssss, the hidden limousine models with the ultra short wheelbase... awesome!

[Ian]

1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

Pick the heaviest weight.

 

Use automobile-catalog.

If not there, use Edmonds.

If not there scour to be web. Look for experts.

 

 

 

The heaviest weight?  What's the rationalle there?  

 

Let's give the luxury cars the most post swap power?

 

The optional equipment on say a Big luxury sedan is going to be a large load compared to that of a Miata.  There might even be cars that have a weight delta almost as much as the actual weight of a Miata.

 

Does anyone actually think this is a good idea?

[Snake]

Does the model have to be on the VPI list to use the weight?

[mender]

2 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

The optional equipment on say a Big luxury sedan is going to be a large load compared to that of a Miata.  There might even be cars that have a weight delta almost as much as the actual weight of a Miata.

2

The biggest delta I've found so far between a base model like the ones that get raced and a full-on pimped out version would only be half a Miata.

 

1 minute ago, Snake said:

Does the model have to be on the VPI list to use the weight?

No, just as long as it is the same generation or chassis designation.

[Snake]

1 minute ago, mender said:

No, just as long as it is the same generation or chassis designation.

 

So the engine you swap in has to be from the VPI list but the weight used in the formula can come from a car not on the list.   Makes perfect sense. 

[Ian]

3 minutes ago, mender said:

The biggest delta I've found so far between a base model like the ones that get raced and a full-on pimped out version would only be half a Miata.

 

"Only"

[mender]

1 minute ago, Snake said:

Makes perfect sense. 

 

Apparently.

 

Which I guess begs the questions: who decided what criteria were going to be used and when did they make this decision?

[mender]

1 minute ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

"Only"

 

Do I detect some irony?

[mender]

1 hour ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

1990 BMW 325i Convertible E30 (M20B25) curb weight = 3078 * 0.90 = 2770 lbs. VPI has the adjusted curb weight at 2731 so since this positively affects E30 owners, I am expecting this change to go into effect immediately?

 

As this is a correction of the E30 swap weight which is part of the BOD discussion this week (?), your expectations seem reasonable.

 

All other corrections not presently submitted will be looked at for next year.

[Snorman]

Every once in a while, you come upon somebody who just wants to watch the world burn. 

S. 

[dimitri.mariutto]

4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Every once in a while, you come upon somebody who just wants to watch the world burn. 

S. 

Well our team is Clowns Alley and the Joker is my spirit animal...

 

[mender]

2 hours ago, mender said:

If I want to submit a weight correction for a '93 W124 Mercedes, do I use the E320 cabrio at 3770 lbs, the 500E at 3858 lbs or the limousine at 3880 lbs? If I use the 500E as the example, do I get to use 322 hp as the stock hp and thereby take the minimum 50 points for the LS1 swap into my '89 '95 300d with the factory 90 litre fuel tank?

So from the lack of rebuttal, it looks like:

1. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the body style

2. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the drivetrain cited

3. I can use whatever year shell I want

4. I can use whatever year and combination had the biggest fuel tank as long it came from the factory that way.

5. I can use the specs from whatever model I find even if it would normally be a higher VPi than the one listed in the swap calculator.

[Ron_e]

21 minutes ago, mender said:

So from the lack of rebuttal, it looks like:

1. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the body style

2. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the drivetrain cited

3. I can use whatever year shell I want

4. I can use whatever year and combination had the biggest fuel tank as long it came from the factory that way.

5. I can use the specs from whatever model I find even if it would normally be a higher VPi than the one listed in the swap calculator.

 

Yeah but the rules are pretty clear you can't claim a Fox platform fuel capacity in another Fox platform - that would just be craziness.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Ron_e

[55mini]

7 hours ago, mender said:

So from the lack of rebuttal, it looks like:

1. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the body style

2. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the drivetrain cited

3. I can use whatever year shell I want

4. I can use whatever year and combination had the biggest fuel tank as long it came from the factory that way.

5. I can use the specs from whatever model I find even if it would normally be a higher VPi than the one listed in the swap calculator.

 

11 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

Pick the heaviest weight.

 

Yes sir here we have it, let the fun begin!

 

Can't wait to see some new unicorns come out of this logic.

[JDChristianson]

I don't understand why the heaviest weight was used.      I believe the number used should be a realistic raced weight.  

[wvumtnbkr]

8 hours ago, mender said:

So from the lack of rebuttal, it looks like:

1. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the body style

2. I can use the heaviest weight regardless of the drivetrain cited

3. I can use whatever year shell I want (as long as it is the same platform / model)

4. I can use whatever year and combination had the biggest fuel tank as long it came from the factory that way.

5. I can use the specs from whatever model I find even if it would normally be a higher VPi than the one listed in the swap calculator.

The first four are true, and have been for awhile as long as you claim the starting VPI of the car with those features.

 

That last line is not true.  You have to use the VPI of the highest model.  The turbo question is still to be answered... However, if you show up with turbo specific parts and are not using the turbo VPI, I would expect bad things to happen.

[wvumtnbkr]

To those that are arguing for "as raced weight".....

 

It doesn't matter.  The equation for the allowable PWR was setup with stock weights - 10% in order to have a standard.  

 

If we came up with actual standards for as raced weights, it would just move the target PWR of the equation.

 

In other words, you would just be subtracting the same amount from both sides of the equation.

 

Now, if you feel the weight is wrong for a certain car, I would notify tech with the appropriate information.

[mender]

10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

To those that are arguing for "as raced weight".....

 

It doesn't matter.  The equation for the allowable PWR was setup with stock weights - 10% in order to have a standard.  

 

If we came up with actual standards for as raced weights, it would just move the target PWR of the equation.

 

In other words, you would just be subtracting the same amount from both sides of the equation.

 

Now, if you feel the weight is wrong for a certain car, I would notify tech with the appropriate information.

The "heaviest weight" thing has moved the PWR calculation so far from what it was intended to be when it came out in 2016 that it is essentially a gift to any team that runs a car with a convertible version on the books.

 

I'm pretty sure a poll about as-raced vs bogus book numbers will show much the same trend as the fuel for points poll: the teams who benefit don't want to lose their advantage.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by mender

[wvumtnbkr]

5 minutes ago, mender said:

The "heaviest weight" thing has moved the PWR calculation so far from what it was intended to be when it came out in 2016 that it is essentially a gift to any team that runs a car with a convertible version on the books.

 

I'm pretty sure a poll about as-raced vs bogus book numbers will show much the same trend as the fuel for points poll: the teams who benefit don't want to lose their advantage.

 

 

In regards to the second comment about fuel:  Well, that's not a correlation that anybody has the data for at this time.  For example, I am for it.  Doesn't help me at all.  I voted to go for it. 

 

I am against as raced weights.  We can't half ass this.  There either needs to be a standard (like we have that is based on something anybody can go to a website and get the same answer) OR, weigh every car and get HP figures for each individual car (WRL).  weighing some similar cars and averaging their weight will give us the SAME EXACT situation we have right now, with no benefit but it will require alot of work to get there.

 

The heaviest weight thing does have a loophole regarding convertibles.  I would like to see those loopholes fixed.

 

 

However, it is all about nothing because the calculator is the official result anyway.  So, as I said earlier, if there is a problem with a specific weight, tell tech about it.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by wvumtnbkr

[Snake]

11 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

To those that are arguing for "as raced weight".....

 

It doesn't matter.  The equation for the allowable PWR was setup with stock weights - 10% in order to have a standard.  

 

If we came up with actual standards for as raced weights, it would just move the target PWR of the equation.

 

In other words, you would just be subtracting the same amount from both sides of the equation.

 

Now, if you feel the weight is wrong for a certain car, I would notify tech with the appropriate information.

 

How about we get crazy and use the weight of the car model you are actually racing and not something not even on the VPI list