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2018 Swap Rule Clarification 4.5.6.


jenoin
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In 2018 BCCR, there is rule 4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the 325i as the starting point).

 

On VPI table there is Note #2 - Factory supercharged or turbocharged cars add 100 points to the listed value (unless already listed as such).

 

So assuming the car is a 1986 NA FC. Normal VPI is 275. If I engine swap, I have to follow rule 4.5.6, and change my base VPI to +100 for turbo because of the Turbo II model. Is this correct?

 

What about my transmission, differential, driveshaft and axles? Am I allowed/required to upgrade all of them to the TII version (for free)? Would I then just say I have a TII, what about other parts like the hood? 

 

 

 

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So this has actually been a pretty big point of discussion this year.

 

Long story short, last I heard it was to be clarified at the big BOD meeting at the NCM event, so if you're just considering it and the decision can wait, I'd wait till then.

 

From my understanding many teams do not take those points right now, since the official "swap calculator page" does not include them and we have been told multiple times that that is the official source.

 

Many (especially the anti-swappers) will argue that you have to, and while I see their point, I don't think they realize how different some turbo models are under the skin than the base model (whole different floor pans, suspensions, transmissions, etc). Not to mention the double jeopardy issue of "what if I turbo the swap?"

 

Personally I will continue to argue against, due to double jeopardy and the wide sweeping differences between some turbo and NA models.

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24 minutes ago, jenoin said:

In 2018 BCCR, there is rule 4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the 325i as the starting point).

 

On VPI table there is Note #2 - Factory supercharged or turbocharged cars add 100 points to the listed value (unless already listed as such).

 

So assuming the car is a 1986 NA FC. Normal VPI is 275. If I engine swap, I have to follow rule 4.5.6, and change my base VPI to +100 for turbo because of the Turbo II model. Is this correct?

 

What about my transmission, differential, driveshaft and axles? Am I allowed/required to upgrade all of them to the TII version (for free)? Would I then just say I have a TII, what about other parts like the hood? 

 

 

 

My input (worth what you paid for it)...

 

We have a swapped 87 RX7.  When i read the new swap rules, i emailed tech and asked them what value I should use.  I actually figured I was going to get stuck using the S5 RX7 value.  They said that the S5 was too different from the S4 and to use the standard S4 value.  So, I have been using the standard S4 value (as does the swap calculator).

 

As a general point, if you are claiming the higher model of a car and are "paying" the points, you can use all of the good stuff from that model.

 

In other words, it would be like doing a platform swap, and THEN doing an engine swap.

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1 hour ago, jenoin said:

In 2018 BCCR, there is rule 4.5.6. Vehicles must use the highest valued model from its generation (i.e., – E30s would use the 325i as the starting point).

 

On VPI table there is Note #2 - Factory supercharged or turbocharged cars add 100 points to the listed value (unless already listed as such).

 

So assuming the car is a 1986 NA FC. Normal VPI is 275. If I engine swap, I have to follow rule 4.5.6, and change my base VPI to +100 for turbo because of the Turbo II model. Is this correct?

 

What about my transmission, differential, driveshaft and axles? Am I allowed/required to upgrade all of them to the TII version (for free)? Would I then just say I have a TII, what about other parts like the hood? 

 

 

 

 

What are you building? Turbo Dodge?

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

My input (worth what you paid for it)...

 

We have a swapped 87 RX7.  When i read the new swap rules, i emailed tech and asked them what value I should use.  I actually figured I was going to get stuck using the S5 RX7 value.  They said that the S5 was too different from the S4 and to use the standard S4 value.  So, I have been using the standard S4 value (as does the swap calculator).

 

As a general point, if you are claiming the higher model of a car and are "paying" the points, you can use all of the good stuff from that model.

 

In other words, it would be like doing a platform swap, and THEN doing an engine swap. 

I'm with this guy, seems logical

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It makes sense that your 87 would remain an S4, as I consider the S4 and S5 to be different generations, not different trims (some might disagree, but as you say, tech agrees!), but the S4 vs S5 is a separate discussion. My question is, do I use 275 points for my 86 GXL, or since the 87 TII is also an S4, would I need to use 375 (because of Note #2)?

 

I get the platform swap, and that would make sense, but if I use the platform swap rule, it requires you to do a 100% swap right? Also, unrelated, the non OE driveshaft points, I get adding points for aluminum or carbon fiber (performance), but 50 points for a custom length steel drive shaft? You can swap a transmission for only 25 points... as long as it uses the exact same output splines/location (which is never going to happen)?

 

I understand the part about the online calculator not using note #2, but if that is a "bug" and not a "feature" it could be corrected any time right? 

 

This is still very early stages of a project that may not ever get done. I'm just trying to plan and ensure that I am understanding the rules correctly.

 

Thanks! 

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14 minutes ago, jenoin said:

It makes sense that your 87 would remain an S4, as I consider the S4 and S5 to be different generations, not different trims (some might disagree, but as you say, tech agrees!), but the S4 vs S5 is a separate discussion. My question is, do I use 275 points for my 86 GXL, or since the 87 TII is also an S4, would I need to use 375 (because of Note #2)?

 

I get the platform swap, and that would make sense, but if I use the platform swap rule, it requires you to do a 100% swap right? Also, unrelated, the non OE driveshaft points, I get adding points for aluminum or carbon fiber (performance), but 50 points for a custom length steel drive shaft? You can swap a transmission for only 25 points... as long as it uses the exact same output splines/location (which is never going to happen)?

 

I understand the part about the online calculator not using note #2, but if that is a "bug" and not a "feature" it could be corrected any time right? 

 

This is still very early stages of a project that may not ever get done. I'm just trying to plan and ensure that I am understanding the rules correctly.

 

Thanks! 

You, and the rest of us, are going to need to wait on the ruling of the turbo model versus not.

 

Because I swapped engine and trans, I do not claim the driveshaft.  I use a steel driveshaft.  That was the concensus on the forum several months ago when I asked.

 

What are you trying to swap in?

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1 hour ago, jenoin said:

I have the roller already, trying to decide between either a mitsu 4g6x or a small block domestic v8. 

Or a dodge TII :lol:

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

We went 60 degree V6.

 

Similar power to the V8 and less weight.

 

Let me know if you have any rx7 specific questions.

The Malibu is on the VPi list, which then allows swapping in a late Gen 60 Degree 3.5L or 3.9L too! I love the 3.9L; great power in a super compact package.

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4 hours ago, Snake said:

If i was forced to take the Turbo VPI on something I would definitely use every turbo part I wanted to for free. 

Certainly. If planning to swap, and if this rule is enforced as such, you're taking the turbo value anyway... why not actually start with the turbo car?

Better yet... if your turbo car has really high HP, your swap may just be 50 points (swapping in less HP than is coming out.. I think this is the way they are doing it even though it's not in the rulebook).

 

What you should do is start with a 2nd gen MR2 (200 points, 130 hp), engine swap it, but there is a turbo model available (300 points, 200 hp). 

So, you start with the MR2 turbo and all the goodies it has, swap in an engine just below 200 HP, value at 50 points.. now you have a mid-engine sports car with 190+ HP for 350 points!!

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12 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Certainly. If planning to swap, and if this rule is enforced as such, you're taking the turbo value anyway... why not actually start with the turbo car?

Better yet... if your turbo car has really high HP, your swap may just be 50 points (swapping in less HP than is coming out.. I think this is the way they are doing it even though it's not in the rulebook).

 

What you should do is start with a 2nd gen MR2 (200 points, 130 hp), engine swap it, but there is a turbo model available (300 points, 200 hp). 

So, you start with the MR2 turbo and all the goodies it has, swap in an engine just below 200 HP, value at 50 points.. now you have a mid-engine sports car with 190+ HP for 350 points!!

Make: Toyota
Model: MR2 NA
Year: 1993
VPi: 200
Car Weight: 2504
Original HP: 130
New HP: 196
Points Added to VPi: 86
--->NEW VPI: 286

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Edmunds weights:

MR2 NA: 2590 lbs = 2331 lbs

MR2 turbo: 2822 lbs = 2540 lbs

 

The difference between using turbo and non-turbo weights is the same as using 211 hp instead of 196 hp:

 

Make: Toyota
Model: MR2 NA
Year: 1993
VPi: 200
Car Weight: 2504
Original HP: 120
New HP: 211
Points Added to VPi: 209
--->NEW VPI: 409

 

Plus 100 points for the turbo but doesn't get added because ? = 223 points for free because of a back door or two being left open.

 

Not a problem because the E30 teams can overcome that with driving ability and teamwork, right? :rolleyes:

Edited by mender
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Food for thought on all of these turbo swaps, having worked as a test engineer in a engine dyno lab for several years, I can attest to loads of data showing turbo engines using considerably more fuel under full load versus a NA engine making the same HP. 11.5-12:1 air fuel ratios really suck down the juice when you're trying to keep those combustion chambers and EGTs low temp!

 

A particular brand of truck with a Turbo V6 gets a lot worse fuel economy under load than two other brands of trucks that use NA v8s. The same would apply to racing, I would expect a turbo vehicle with the same HP and tank size as a NA vehicle to run out of fuel sooner.

 

 

Edited by UglyBoost91
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As a Board member I did not read this whole thread but did see someone say we would address this at the June Board meeting.  There was no petition regarding this, and I do not believe we are addressing it at that meeting.  We are going to address it in the rules review later in the summer and it will be changed/fixed or left alone for the 2019 ruleset which will likely be released in September.  I know the suggestion to put the turbo versions back into the VPI table (at higher values) and eliminate the turbo 100 point adjustment from the swap stuff is one way to go.  I'm sure there are others.  

 

At the June meeting we will address the petitions, any questions about financials, and perhaps get into the rules but I doubt we will get there.  Please don't shoot the messenger, just trying to get info out there.

Edited by Jer
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55 minutes ago, Jer said:

As a Board member I did not read this whole thread but did see someone say we would address this at the June Board meeting.  There was no petition regarding this, and I do not believe we are addressing it at that meeting.  We are going to address it in the rules review later in the summer and it will be changed/fixed or left alone for the 2019 ruleset which will likely be released in September.  I know the suggestion to put the turbo versions back into the VPI table (at higher values) and eliminate the turbo 100 point adjustment from the swap stuff is one way to go.  I'm sure there are others.  

 

At the June meeting we will address the petitions, any questions about financials, and perhaps get into the rules but I doubt we will get there.  Please don't shoot the messenger, just trying to get info out there.

 

Thank you for the info @Jer.

 

I think we're on the same page that it needs addressed at some point, and I'm hoping sooner than later, but I know we have a lot to get through in June.

 

Putting the turbo models back in the list wouldn't really help though unless there was supporting text that it was a different platform. Plenty of other cars with 4+ lines for the same year but they have to take the highest too. Just need some text to say "swapped cars may take turbo +100 points with all turbo variant hardware or pay for parts individually" or something like that?

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30 minutes ago, Wittenauer Racing said:

 

Thank you for the info @Jer.

 

I think we're on the same page that it needs addressed at some point, and I'm hoping sooner than later, but I know we have a lot to get through in June.

 

Putting the turbo models back in the list wouldn't really help though unless there was supporting text that it was a different platform. Plenty of other cars with 4+ lines for the same year but they have to take the highest too. Just need some text to say "swapped cars may take turbo +100 points with all turbo variant hardware or pay for parts individually" or something like that?

As you noted, yes putting them back in the table could help---with some additional rules clarification.  The old 100 point turbo penalty was a throwback from the Condron days.  It might be tweaked or who knows, but I don't think it was ever anyone's idea that a non-turbo be stuck with a turbo penalty on a swap.  That just makes no sense despite the rules being poorly written in that regard.  

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31 minutes ago, Jer said:

As you noted, yes putting them back in the table could help---with some additional rules clarification.  The old 100 point turbo penalty was a throwback from the Condron days.  It might be tweaked or who knows, but I don't think it was ever anyone's idea that a non-turbo be stuck with a turbo penalty on a swap.  That just makes no sense despite the rules being poorly written in that regard.  

If I may make a request when you all sit down and re evaulate cars, make sure it's noted that some older turbo cars honestly were not that good or tunable. As an example alot of the 1980s non intercooled cars, and even some with intercooler, are making boosted power levels on par with modern NA engines, and they have tiny stock turbos that can't really push much more air anyway. Seem like some of those cars getting bumped up a class is a bit too much.

 

My 2 cents : )

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

As you noted, yes putting them back in the table could help---with some additional rules clarification.  The old 100 point turbo penalty was a throwback from the Condron days.  It might be tweaked or who knows, but I don't think it was ever anyone's idea that a non-turbo be stuck with a turbo penalty on a swap.  That just makes no sense despite the rules being poorly written in that regard.  

For the sake of transparency, I traded emails with Mike a couple months back about turbo values. The "change +100" petition was mine, and I was asking Mike if we could instead simply add the turbo models as their own lines in the VPI table without a fixed relation to the N/A versions. His response was:

 

Quote

...you’re in luck – we decided to update the VPI table this way for 2019 anyway, without a petition to suggest that.  It just makes more sense.

Mike

Based on this, I withdrew the petition.

Edited by enginerd
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