Coming from Lemons Engine VPI help please

[ajj73]

Hi, I am new to Champcar and trying to figure out where we are in terms of points. Here is the situation. We have a MK2 VW golf (200 pts) that originally had a 1.8L engine. The car as we purchased it has a 2.0 shortblock from a 1996 2.0L golf.  So, engine swap gives me 50 points with the hp change. HOWEVER, the car has an aftermarket head and cam. This gives me an additional 150 points. My question is this: the aftermarket head, requires the use of the intake manifold that was originally on the car- the 1.8L manifold. Do I get charged points for using the original stock manifold from the original car? Also, the car is megasquirted and uses gm coils for ignition (distributor is now a cam position sensor).  Are those coils charged at 20 points for an aftermarket ignition system or 10 pts for an aftermarket coil? Can someone please tell me the total points for this? Thanks very much in advance. 

 

 

[DRVOLKS]

its just a replacement no points and using the intake from the OEM engine no points. just email Phil  

www.DRVOLKS.com

 

[wvumtnbkr]

39 minutes ago, DRVOLKS said:

its just a replacement no points and using the intake from the OEM engine no points. just email Phil  

www.DRVOLKS.com

 

Nope. Can't use the original intake.  Can't mix and match parts from the original and swapped engines.

 

It would be an intake swap.

 

The coils are probably points, but I don't know how much.

[wvumtnbkr]

Wait, do you mean intake manifold or do you mean the device that gets air to the throttle body?

 

Anything is free before the throttle body.

 

So, you could use the original intake if It is before the throttle body.

 

My original post was thinking intake manifold.

[ajj73]

I was referring to the intake manifold. Due to the head being from the old counterflow style engine, the intake manifold had to come from it as well. Looking at it the other way, it is the original vehicle engine, but bored and stroked from 1.8 to 2.0L. I don;t imagine that would help my situation Do I have other options other than changing the engine? (Car was a street car purchased with this engine minus the engine management).

[Ray Franck]

 

39 minutes ago, ajj73 said:

I was referring to the intake manifold. Due to the head being from the old counterflow style engine, the intake manifold had to come from it as well. Looking at it the other way, it is the original vehicle engine, but bored and stroked from 1.8 to 2.0L. I don;t imagine that would help my situation Do I have other options other than changing the engine? (Car was a street car purchased with this engine minus the engine management).

 Nothing official here you need to email   Phil.McKinney@champcar.org  

[karman1970]

I'd put a stock 2-liter crossflow head and intake on it and call it good if'n it was me.

 

Edit: or just put the factory head back on and grab a Neuspeed blower kit (assuming that doesn't get banned pending the Board meeting soon).

 

Edit edit: ignore me and my bright ideas. Blower kit wouldn't work as it has to come from an existing car.

Edited June 7, 2018 by karman1970

[TiredBirds]

13 hours ago, ajj73 said:

Hi, I am new to Champcar and trying to figure out where we are in terms of points. Here is the situation. We have a MK2 VW golf (200 pts) that originally had a 1.8L engine. The car as we purchased it has a 2.0 shortblock from a 1996 2.0L golf.  So, engine swap gives me 50 points with the hp change. HOWEVER, the car has an aftermarket head and cam. This gives me an additional 150 points. My question is this: the aftermarket head, requires the use of the intake manifold that was originally on the car- the 1.8L manifold. Do I get charged points for using the original stock manifold from the original car? Also, the car is megasquirted and uses gm coils for ignition (distributor is now a cam position sensor).  Are those coils charged at 20 points for an aftermarket ignition system or 10 pts for an aftermarket coil? Can someone please tell me the total points for this? Thanks very much in advance. 

 

 

we run both, you should be good. It is much easier to go from Lemons to Chumps then Chumps to Lemons. Get ready for fast racing. Chumps is a different ball game. Unlike Lemons most cars are fast. 

[tommytipover]

9 hours ago, karman1970 said:

I'd put a stock 2-liter crossflow head and intake on it and call it good if'n it was me.

Complete 2.0 makes the most sense to me as well.

 

I could see the logic in saying the head and intake are original (stock) to the car. Pay points for the swap, cam, and coils? That may open a can of compliance worms though...

[ajj73]

Thanks guys for all of your input. I will email Phil. I appreciate the help. 

[Black Magic]

15 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Nope. Can't use the original intake.  Can't mix and match parts from the original and swapped engines.

 

It would be an intake swap.

 

The coils are probably points, but I don't know how much.

 

Rob that was my understanding as well, until i saw several cars at the glen. 

 

I think in canada you get the stock intake for free. In america not sure. 

 

Several tall deck motor swaps need the intake from the donor car or lots of body cutting (like my neon intake thru the hood). I think that is where the grey zone is.

[UglyBoost91]

1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

Rob that was my understanding as well, until i saw several cars at the glen. 

 

I think in canada you get the stock intake for free. In america not sure. 

 

Several tall deck motor swaps need the intake from the donor car or lots of body cutting (like my neon intake thru the hood). I think that is where the grey zone is.

 

2 hours ago, ajj73 said:

Thanks guys for all of your input. I will email Phil. I appreciate the help. 

 

*Disclaimer: Not speaking for the rules here, just my opinion!* I think if it were clear after you emailed tech about the intake that it was not a performance swap, but a "feasibility of fitting it in the engine bay" swap, I doubt many people would care. You may try to find any flow numbers listed on the internet for both intakes to use as bargaining data for your swap. It gets tricky when, for instance a smogged out 80s V8 gets swapped in, and your intake swap to "make it fit" goes from a cast iron 2 barrel boat anchor to a ACNC ported aluminum dual-quad tunnel ram, haha. With that's said, rules are rules and it's what makes this series better than others, IMO.

 

I think you will find you won't miss Lemons, at least I don't after 5 lemons races, and I've yet to even drive in a chump event, just visited them to scope it out. I got so fed up with the people running the show at Lemons that had insanely skewed rulings. I think you'll see the difference just emailing Phil. When I emailed "the Lemons associates" about a clarification, they basically told me to run a different car. I can't wait for the day I'll be in a Chump race with my build and leave that fruit series and their teenagers behind. No series is perfect, but from what I see of chump so far, I like. Fast cars, Fast Drivers, and Good People is my impression.

 

 

 

[wvumtnbkr]

The rule was specifically written to eliminate mixing and matching of parts from teh two engines BECAUSE of the neon swaps.

 

you CAN NOT mix and match parts like that.

[Black Magic]

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

The rule was specifically written to eliminate mixing and matching of parts from teh two engines BECAUSE of the neon swaps.

 

you CAN NOT mix and match parts like that.

 

I totally though so as well. So much so that my car had a 2 sq ft hole in the hood to use the pt intake.

 

I think the rules will need a little clarification to handle this and "cut" intakes modified to fit an engine. Think older series 1 gm 3800 in rwd car. Doesn't affect me right now as i plan to make a real intake, but i see the confusion.

 

Sort of like headers for free in a swap. 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Black Magic

[enginerd]

5 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Think older series 1 gm 3800 in rwd car. Doesn't affect me right now as i plan to make a real intake, but i see the confusion.

 

Sort of like headers for free in a swap. 

Here’s an idea... don’t put a GM 3800 in a RWD car!  

Edited June 7, 2018 by enginerd

[TiredBirds]

Rules:

Section 1

1.1 all cars cannot exceed $2500 in total cost less safety gear. So keep your receipts. 

End of rules

[UglyBoost91]

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Here’s an idea... don’t put a GM 3800 in a RWD car!  

 

7 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I totally though so as well. So much so that my car had a 2 sq ft hole in the hood to use the pt intake.

 

I think the rules will need a little clarification to handle this and "cut" intakes modified to fit an engine. Think older series 1 gm 3800 in rwd car. Doesn't affect me right now as i plan to make a real intake, but i see the confusion.

 

Sort of like headers for free in a swap. 

@enginerd, @Black Magic 

 

200hp at a easy going 5200 RPM with torque for days, and it will go 300k miles while being abused.  Not to mention, you could rebuild it from in stock parts at autozone, and an entire new engine with 20k miles on it from grandmas old "church and grocery store" commututer car is 100 bucks on a bad day. One of the best cheap endurance race motors I can think of. 

[Xph]

1 hour ago, UglyBoost91 said:

it was not a performance swap, but a "feasibility of fitting it in the engine bay" swap

 

This!

 

So, when you do the swap, there is a new gray area with our swap rule...  you are allowed to include "any items required to complete the swap" in your 1500$ cost...   this includes headers and potentially things like your intake, adapters, custom motor mounts (note connectors, bolts, sensors, ecu, are already free / open)...

 

As it was described to me...   

 

If you can demonstrate that the part that came with the swap engine obviously doesnt fit / work (ie header will not make it past firewall, subframe)...  you can claim the change in the 1500$ instead of taking points...   this is limited however to things that are clearly not "performance improvements"...   as such, replacing one cast manifold for another can be covered under the 1500$...  (in your case an intake from your original car is zero $ because you already had it)...   however if you took a cast manifold and replaced it with a long tube set, or say put ITB's on your car "so your hood could close" you would need to take the points due to the performance advantage.

 

Depending on the coils "requirement" for your swap...   IE if the coil that came with your car wont run the engine, and switching to the megasquirt was required to run the new engine in your platform and that required you to switch the coil...  IE it was individual coils and you replaced individual coils with some other coil, then you can include it in the 1500$...   if it was distributor, and you went to coil on plug, you will likely have to take the hit (points) for the performance improvement.

[ajj73]

Ha- you guys are confusing me even more. The manifold on the head is stock to the original car as is the throttle body. The reason I am asking these questions is because, I really don't want to build another engine just to run chump. 250 points for the power change really is kinda crazy, especially when it bumps the car into the next level class and leaves 50 points to work. Any 4 cyl VW of that vintage needs an oil cooler or you'll see 300 degree oil temp all day, so theres another 20.  If the car makes 25-30 hp more with the head change and additional .2L displacement and the cam, I'd be amazed. I just don't have a stock head to throw at it or a 1.8L short block.  I guess my best move is to talk to phil.  The car is  basically how it came off the street, until the CIS injection took a dump and I threw the microsquirt at it. I would expect to take the hit on the coils, its reasonable- I did the coil near plug setup just to see if I could get it to work properly and the novelty of it, not really a performance gain. Technically, it is just aftermarket coils, as the replacement ECU covers spark and fuel and that appears to be 0 points. I just hate to be over the limit for just an engine that isn't anything special at all. 

 

 

One other question I don't see in the rules- what is the penalty for a welded diff? All stock, just welded.

[mbirt]

1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

Rules:

Section 1

1.1 all cars cannot exceed $2500 in total cost less safety gear. So keep your receipts. 

End of rules

Got me. Changed to green for other noobs like me.

[enginerd]

10 minutes ago, ajj73 said:

Ha- you guys are confusing me even more. The manifold on the head is stock to the original car as is the throttle body. The reason I am asking these questions is because, I really don't want to build another engine just to run chump. 250 points for the power change really is kinda crazy, especially when it bumps the car into the next level class and leaves 50 points to work. Any 4 cyl VW of that vintage needs an oil cooler or you'll see 300 degree oil temp all day, so theres another 20.  If the car makes 25-30 hp more with the head change and additional .2L displacement and the cam, I'd be amazed. I just don't have a stock head to throw at it or a 1.8L short block.  I guess my best move is to talk to phil.  The car is  basically how it came off the street, until the CIS injection took a dump and I threw the microsquirt at it. I would expect to take the hit on the coils, its reasonable- I did the coil near plug setup just to see if I could get it to work properly and the novelty of it, not really a performance gain. Technically, it is just aftermarket coils, as the replacement ECU covers spark and fuel and that appears to be 0 points. I just hate to be over the limit for just an engine that isn't anything special at all. 

 

 

One other question I don't see in the rules- what is the penalty for a welded diff? All stock, just welded.

Weld all you want... body.. diff... anything... 0 points.

 

Your Frankenstein of an engine is a lot of points because there is the potential to make a ton of power if you mix and match Block / TB / head / coils / etc. on some engines. The fact that your particular combination doesn't make power worthy of 250 points is irrelevant. It is a bit unfortunate that the Lemons and ChampCar rules are so different, but once you try ChampCar you'll find that the racing is so much better and worth making some changes to your car to compete.

[Black Magic]

Welded diff has traditionally been free. Arguably the most free thing you can do, short of claiming the welding wire cost . 

 

If you could afford the motor costs going to a stock head, intake and turbo would be much more point effective and a better match for both series. 

 

Read and post questions on turbo rules before diving in full steam, there are nuances there as well.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Black Magic

[Andrew D Johnson]

25 minutes ago, ajj73 said:

One other question I don't see in the rules- what is the penalty for a welded diff? All stock, just welded.

 

It is 0 points IIRC. 

[ajj73]

8 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

Welded diff has traditionally been free. Arguably the most free thing you can do, short of claiming the welding wire cost . 

 

If you could afford the motor costs going to a stock head, intake and turbo would be much more point effective and a better match for both series. 

 

Read and post questions on turbo rules before diving in full steam, there are nuances there as well.

 

I don't like dealing with Turbo's for endurance racing. However, you are making my point, the point cost for a turbo add is less at the end of the day and definitely more power. 

[Black Magic]

With a fixed point rule system you need to be picking "pretty damn good" parts if you want to swap and claim points in those areas. 

 

For alot of engines head swapping doesn't give you much return compared to your other options. Maybe swap to stock 2.0 head and intake, run a big cam then look at a turbo. 

 

At the end of the day many people find using more powerful stock motors over modding a weaker motor up with points to be a better option. Vr6? Newer vw engine swap with 160 to 180 hp?