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Suspension Rules....


atxe30
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OK, so I'm new to motorsport, but I've raced other modes of transport since I was like 12. 

 

I'm building an e30, and after a bunch of work ripping the car apart, re-enforcing, etc. I'm at the point I'm ready to put everything back together and get the damn thing over to get caged. 

 

However, the only real suspension setup I have available to me is B8's and HR or IE race springs. Unfortunately, Bilstein appears incapable of figuring out basic logistics in 2018 and so I can't get the shocks to put the bottom back on the car.

 

Now, at 75 points a corner the entry-level Koni adjustable ( which by the way cost the same as the billi's) for a set...will cost me 75 points a corner...

 

Which leads me to common-sense....or lack there-of. I totally get the desire to manage cost. But seriously, I want to race. So at this point I'm going to throw the entry level Koni race shocks on and write off Champ for a while. That way I can at least make COTA in the fall through WRL (I'live in Austin), and make some forward progress...

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3 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

OK, so I'm new to motorsport, but I've raced other modes of transport since I was like 12. 

 

I'm building an e30, and after a bunch of work ripping the car apart, re-enforcing, etc. I'm at the point I'm ready to put everything back together and get the damn thing over to get caged. 

 

However, the only real suspension setup I have available to me is B8's and HR or IE race springs. Unfortunately, Bilstein appears incapable of figuring out basic logistics in 2018 and so I can't get the shocks to put the bottom back on the car.

 

Now, at 75 points a corner the entry-level Koni adjustable ( which by the way cost the same as the billi's) for a set...will cost me 75 points a corner...

 

Which leads me to common-sense....or lack there-of. I totally get the desire to manage cost. But seriously, I want to race. So at this point I'm going to throw the entry level Koni race shocks on and write off Champ for a while. That way I can at least make COTA in the fall through WRL (I'live in Austin), and make some forward progress...

In the board meeting which happened earlier this month, CEO Mike Chisek (@chisek) noted that the 75 pts / corner value on adjustable dampers is ridiculous, and that in the next rulebook update, the value will be lower (I don't think he specified how much lower).

 

If I were you, I would toss the Koni's on and just pretend they are stock shocks. Being new to motorsports, and being that it's a new build, you aren't going to be on the podium in your first race... so you aren't going to get protested. By the time you have raced a couple events and have fallen in love with ChampCar and are ready to vie for the podium, either the Bilsteins will be available or the Koni's will carry a much lower point value.

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

In the board meeting which happened earlier this month, CEO Mike Chisek (@chisek) noted that the 75 pts / corner value on adjustable dampers is ridiculous, and that in the next rulebook update, the value will be lower (I don't think he specified how much lower).

 

If I were you, I would toss the Koni's on and just pretend they are stock shocks. Being new to motorsports, and being that it's a new build, you aren't going to be on the podium in your first race... so you aren't going to get protested. By the time you have raced a couple events and have fallen in love with ChampCar and are ready to vie for the podium, either the Bilsteins will be available or the Koni's will carry a much lower point value.

Thank You! 

 

I will move forward....

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

In the board meeting which happened earlier this month, CEO Mike Chisek (@chisek) noted that the 75 pts / corner value on adjustable dampers is ridiculous, and that in the next rulebook update, the value will be lower (I don't think he specified how much lower).

To 25 points/corner. 

S. 

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that just re-enforces the focus on WRL for me personally.

 

spec e30 has published a CO standard. 

 

it no longer costs 3k to put a decent suspension on your car. it cost 1k which is the same thing it costs to put race level springs and shocks on...

 

what am i missing?

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Not sure what to tell you. There are a ton of guys running E30's and doing very well and not having issues with not being able to run adjustable shocks, so I'm pretty sure they have figured it out. 

Springs are free in the stock diameter. 

S. 

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2 minutes ago, mender said:

B8s apparently ship July 18th for fronts and July 11th for rears:

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/e/BMW-E30-Parts/c-211-bilstein-bmw-shocks-struts-single-shocks

yeah, if by some chance you got on the waiting list....

when you are down to basically one supplier things get a bit grippy....

i missed the memo on wait list...

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26 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Not sure what to tell you. There are a ton of guys running E30's and doing very well and not having issues with not being able to run adjustable shocks, so I'm pretty sure they have figured it out. 

Springs are free in the stock diameter. 

S. 

i really don't care so much about the adjustable thing, it's just a drag not being able to get parts and having the rating system out of sync with supply chain, etc.

 

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Probably already know about this:

"B6 is designed to work with springs that don't lower from factory, B8 is designed for springs that lower the car. The body of the B6 is longer than the B8, that's the primary difference. Dampening on the B8 is somewhere between 5 and 10% stiffer to compensate for less shock travel."

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26 minutes ago, mender said:

Probably already know about this:

"B6 is designed to work with springs that don't lower from factory, B8 is designed for springs that lower the car. The body of the B6 is longer than the B8, that's the primary difference. Dampening on the B8 is somewhere between 5 and 10% stiffer to compensate for less shock travel."

As someone who has B8s installed and has looked at our suspension travel, the B6 would cause bottoming out so it would not be acceptable. 

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1 hour ago, atxe30 said:

sorry folks, i don't mean to be whiney. it's just frustrating when you have to contemplate being drawing-dead before you even get to starting grid.

At least you can buy Bilsteins for your car, Fieros get KYBs as the top choice. :rolleyes:

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hmm... one chuckles at the supply chain shit-show.....i'll just find what's available...sigh.....

"We just wanted to let you know that your KONI order xxxxxxxxxx contains items that are currently on backorder. Therefore, the items listed below will be slightly delayed for shipment."
 
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10 hours ago, atxe30 said:

OK, so I'm new to motorsport, but I've raced other modes of transport since I was like 12. 

I'm building an e30, and after a bunch of work ripping the car apart, re-enforcing, etc. I'm at the point I'm ready to put everything back together and get the damn thing over to get caged. 

However, the only real suspension setup I have available to me is B8's and HR or IE race springs.

 

Well, first off, welcome to Champcar - one of, if not, the best racing series currently out there.

You'll find a great group of people here, both competitors and management. Most folks racing in this series,  and on this forum, are usually very helpful, as you can see by the advice offered up to a first time poster (atxe30) here.  I, too, usually fall into that group, and enjoy helping people out based on past experiences that we all like to share. Sometimes  a dose of reality doesn't strike people the right way, but here's a dose of reality for you...

So - you're ready to quit the series before even getting started in it, just because you can't get parts in time for your E30 - a car that is arguably THE most successful car in Chumpcar/Champcar history? Wow! For a person admittedly new to motorsports, it sees by the tone of your posts, that this is the only thing keeping you off the podium. LOL, man have you got a lot to learn! Designs on a piece of paper (as you put it) only provide a basis for success, there's a whole lot more that goes into being successful in endurance racing that having the best theory or design. How is your racecraft? Your driving prowess, and that of your teammates? How fast and efficient are your pit stops? Can your car be driven hard, and have enough fuel to last 2 hours? What about the reliability in your build? Been testing and All the bugs are worked out already?  Oh wait, the car isn't even caged yet.

 

10 hours ago, enginerd said:

If I were you, I would toss the Koni's on and just pretend they are stock shocks. Being new to motorsports, and being that it's a new build, you aren't going to be on the podium in your first race... so you aren't going to get protested. By the time you have raced a couple events and have fallen in love with ChampCar and are ready to vie for the podium, either the Bilsteins will be available or the Koni's will carry a much lower point value.

Here is some good advice that will get you started at perfecting all of the things I questioned above. Great advice @enginerd - thanks!

 

8 hours ago, atxe30 said:

that just re-enforces the focus on WRL for me personally.

Still threatening to take your ball and go home, before even getting started? SMH

 

7 hours ago, Snorman said:

There are a ton of guys running E30's and doing very well and not having issues with not being able to run adjustable shocks, so I'm pretty sure they have figured it out.

 

7 hours ago, atxe30 said:

i really don't care so much about the adjustable thing, it's just a drag not being able to get parts and having the rating system out of sync with supply chain, etc.

 

5 hours ago, mender said:

At least you can buy Bilsteins for your car, Fieros get KYBs as the top choice. :rolleyes:

 

I don't know of any series that bases their rules on the supply chain issues. As @mender stated, at least many go fast parts are available for your platform. Not all cars being raced in  the series have that luxury. B8's ARE offered for the car we run, but we ran our first couple races on stock springs/shocks, due to the 4-5 month lead time to special order them and have 
Bilstein build and ship them from Germany.

 

7 hours ago, atxe30 said:

sorry folks, i don't mean to be whiney. it's just frustrating when you have to contemplate being drawing-dead before you even get to starting grid.

Don't get too frustrated, considering as I said before, that you're building a make of vehicle that is arguably THE most successful platform in Champcar. How do you think the guys racing Saturns, or Eclipses, or Saabs, or Focus's, or Mazda 626's, or Neons or PT Cruisers feel? None of them are "the ultimate driving machine", and don't have the advantage of being designed for the autobahn - but wait - they've all been on podiums at Champ races - some somewhat regularly!!

I guess having the best design on a piece of paper isn't the only factor in being successful, hmmmm....?? So don't give up yet, you're far ahead of most...

Reading through your posts, the key words (and the tone of which they are used) are: 'new to motorsport' 'building an E30' 'whiney'.... I hope you're not one of THOSE type of guys - if so, endurance racing will put you in your place , just like it's done to all of us - good luck in the meantime along your learning curve.  

 

P.S. If I come across as an ass, not the usually friendly helpful person that I am - it's because it's 3am, and posts that trash talk a great race series that someone  hasn't even participated in yet,  - well they just irk me. And sometimes, a dose of reality is needed. You can thank me years from now, when your learning curve catches up to the dreams and fantasies that we all have when we're first starting out. (Damn did I forget that green font again?)

Edited by mcoppola
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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Well, I said it, but probably did sound like a jerk to some... 😉

Guess I take after my grandma - she used to yell at us and laugh all at the same time, or moments apart!

@thewheelerZ - I look forward to meeting you someday. And I look forward to seeing your new build, that 626 was sweet!

 

@atxe30 - sorry if my post seems a bit harsh, but as many others have posted here, and re-affirmed at the track - it takes so much more to succeed in endurance racing than a perfectly prepared and well thought out car. As @thewheelerZ pointed out, you won't get any sympathy for picking arguably the best platform to start out with. But, if you seek advice in a kind, friendly way, and treat the series and others with mutual respect  - you're going to be shocked (yes, shocked) at how wiling this community is to helping each other. IF you haven't been out to one of our races yet, do so. There's definitely even more camaraderie at the Champcar races than there is on this forum.

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I campaigned an e30 for a few years that won multiple races on stock shocks and cut stock springs.  Nothing wrong with going that direction until the Billy's are available.

Like others have said, there are a bunch of moving parts that make or break the success of a team.  The best thing to do is get the car out there and learn the sport.  Winning a race, or even getting close, isn't something that many teams can accomplish for a multitude of reasons.  

So get a set of B4's, cut the springs, and get the car out on track.

 

welcome to the asylum...

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Tried WRL,had a good time but there is no comparison bracket racing 8 cars in class with 40 overall attendees @ Daytona 2 months after Champ racing the same track against 110+ cars all shooting for a common podium.

 

Get back to me after building a top 5ish, completely unsupported by the aftermarket, Infiniti(passing all but the best e30s routinely)

 

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@mcoppola

 

Indeed, would love to share a beer one day!  The Albino Rhino rode at Mosport today for the first time ! Had a few teething issues early on. Then ran solidly until hour 6.5 when we found the gas tank to be very hot and wasn't venting. 

 

IMG_4742.JPG.9e3a6e803ca8ade73b523c62fd03eeb7.JPG

 

by the way; the off the shelf "lowering springs" (note the wheel gap on the front - hahaha, didn't have time to cut em down) and kyb (only off the shelf option available) were.... let's just say.... less than ideal!  The car does have other attributes to compensate though!

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