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Recommend a lift pump?


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Setup is an 18 gallon ATL roadrace cell with built in trap, feeding a regulation size 4-port surge tank to a ridiculously overkill spec inline high pressure pump to the filter, FPR, and engine.  Motor consumes 10-12 GPH in full attack mode.

 

Spec'ing the lift pump seems way harder than it should be.  I'd "like" it to be inline, with NPT (or even AN) ports, and obviously low pressure, self priming and preferably not a loud clattery nuisance like my old Facet's were back in the day.  Diesel pump?  Marine pump? 

 

Any recommendations?  Lots of "no-name" chinesium stuff out there, not to mention lots of overpriced branded versions of the same units... what *actually* works well?  Can it be had for under $100?

Edited by Gearhead_42
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So just to clarify, your set up is feed from cell to surge, surge gravity feeding to pressure pump, pressure pump to fuel rail, then back to surge with return line from surge to cell? Or is it a returnless system? 

 

Only reason I ask is I was having issues when I'd return from the rail back to the surge. Still unknown if my issue was heat related or design flaw in my surge - I'd lean more towards design flaw  :lol:  so I had to bypass the surge and return directly to the cell. Where I am going with this is if you ever have to return directly to your cell for some unforeseen reason make sure your lift pump can keep up with your main pressure pump or else you'll drain the surge faster than you are filling it.  

 

 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee

Here you go...

https://www.summitracing.com/search?keyword=P4594

 

@mender recommendation - works great on his Fiero and our Focus. 75gph seems like overkill but it keeps the surge tank full with that volume. Cheap, good name brand, and the instructions say it will lift fuel 24". Easy solution. Slightly loud (mine is mounted inside a box inside the car)  but not loud enough to be irritating at all. 

 

IMG_2234.JPG.38af52ab83e7c54090f6d4aa5ed7bfd6.JPG

IMG_2244.JPG.bab8b2ec637f9d3257f65418e81ed525.JPG

Edited by mcoppola
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Cheapest off the shelf option is a stock pump from a 80s early 90s bronco. Easy to find as well.

 

The lift pump to surge has an easy life, it only has to deliver an average of your burn rate at low pressure. 

 

Make sure you return the top of your surge to the tank and the rail to the top of the surge. If you go rail to main tank you run the risk of the surge being dumped into the main tank by the return faster than the lift pump fills the surge. If possible have the return to the tank go in "the sock", which is the small trapped area the tank draws from anyway.

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If you don't have excess capacity to quickly refill the surge tank, you'll deplete the surge tank by stages as you're getting low and the car will start to stutter well before you get to the bottom of the cell. I usually have less than 1/2 gallon left in the cell and the car never hiccups.

 

I have a returnless fuel rail but I plumbed the overflow line that's at the top of my surge tank back into the fuel cell. I rigged up a yellow shift light to come on when the surge tank level drops below about 80%.

 

When my fuel light stays on for one straight, we pit next time because we are almost out of fuel. At 75 GPH my lift pump can completely refill the surge tank in less than 30 seconds so when it doesn't top it up on the straight I know there isn't fuel in the cell. A pump that only covers the average usage won't keep up.

 

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Same volume overkill I use. :)

 

I cut the top out of a GM tank and built a tall square tank that uses the stock high-pressure fuel pump/sender package. Modded the stock fuel level sender to be a switch at 80% capacity and trigger a relay for the fuel light.

Edited by mender
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Just now, pintodave said:

 

And does you likey?

 

I'd be sold on it, but then I'd have to find a different low fuel warning light (which I know was discussed in other threads previously). 

 

It's in the new car so we really haven't got any time on it.   It does seem very well made and looks nice.     

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11 hours ago, mender said:

If you don't have excess capacity to quickly refill the surge tank, you'll deplete the surge tank by stages as you're getting low and the car will start to stutter well before you get to the bottom of the cell. I usually have less than 1/2 gallon left in the cell and the car never hiccups.

 

I have a returnless fuel rail but I plumbed the overflow line that's at the top of my surge tank back into the fuel cell. I rigged up a yellow shift light to come on when the surge tank level drops below about 80%.

 

When my fuel light stays on for one straight, we pit next time because we are almost out of fuel. At 75 GPH my lift pump can completely refill the surge tank in less than 30 seconds so when it doesn't top it up on the straight I know there isn't fuel in the cell. A pump that only covers the average usage won't keep up.

 

 

Solid point. I shoulda worded it different... I don't think a 8 gph pump is gonna do it.

 

I have seen an a1000 pump used as a lift pump on a 4 cylinder. You don't need that. I use a second stock neon pump and have never had an issue. Since the lift pump sees a 5 psi pressure drop vs 50ish oem (i use a reg so the surge is pressurized and will activate a fuel pressure light)  most any decent oem pump would fill really fast.

 

I would suggest a taller surge shape, it helps with sloshing. Here is mine made to fit a neon stock fuel module. 

 

If you use hose submerged in your surge get the sae hose certified for submerging. Otherwise it will become 2x od when it swells.  

20150310_223811.jpg

Edited by Black Magic
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13 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Here you go...

https://www.summitracing.com/search?keyword=P4594

 

@mender recommendation - works great on his Fiero and our Focus. 75gph seems like overkill but it keeps the surge tank full with that volume. Cheap, good name brand, and the instructions say it will lift fuel 24". Easy solution. Slightly loud (mine is mounted inside a box inside the car)  but not loud enough to be irritating at all. 

 

IMG_2234.JPG.38af52ab83e7c54090f6d4aa5ed7bfd6.JPG

IMG_2244.JPG.bab8b2ec637f9d3257f65418e81ed525.JPG

 

Before I designed turbos I designed fuel pumps, to me as a lift pump the Carter has a lot going for it and it is what I use. It has 2 big benefits over other low pressure electric pumps like a Holley, it is a roller vane design instead of sliding vane, and it has a sealed body without a shaft seal. By far the most common problem with vane style pumps is leaking through the shaft seal, by enclosing everything inside a crimped body you completely eliminate that possibility. The most common reason for a failed sliding vane pump is getting a small imperfection in the vane ring (the outside part of the pump cavity where the vanes slide along), either from ingesting some debris, or maybe from a pressure spike from deadheading, once you have an imperfection the vanes start to skip over it then slam back down, the wear goes up exponentially and you quickly go from a working pump to a dead one. The roller vane design is less susceptible to this failure mode. Compared to a high pressure gerotor pump the Carter has much looser clearances and is not as susceptible to damage if it does pass some debris through it.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Any chance you can share part #s of your favorite carters?

 

 

The one in the link is probably their best seller, and a great pump for what we are doing. The one thing I would like to get is a low flow pump with 3/8npt ports instead of ¼, or even better -8 o-ring ports. I am a big believer in an unrestricted inlet to any pump, in my past life we required a -12 inlet hose to the big 400gph drag racing pumps. Be very careful with the hoses feeding your fuel pumps, avoid any restrictions like forged 90⁰ fittings and use as big of a hose as you can. For these pumps what I like to do is use a steel -8 fitting instead of aluminum and ream the NPT end out as big as I am comfortable with.

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1 minute ago, mhr650 said:

 

 

The one in the link is probably their best seller, and a great pump for what we are doing. The one thing I would like to get is a low flow pump with 3/8npt ports instead of ¼, or even better -8 o-ring ports. I am a big believer in an unrestricted inlet to any pump, in my past life we required a -12 inlet hose to the big 400gph drag racing pumps. Be very careful with the hoses feeding your fuel pumps, avoid any restrictions like forged 90⁰ fittings and use as big of a hose as you can. For these pumps what I like to do is use a steel -8 fitting instead of aluminum and ream the NPT end out as big as I am comfortable with.

I was just thinking the exact same thing... why oh why do they saddle the low flows with 1/4 npt?

 

 

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Here's my set-up:

DSCI0001.thumb.JPG.05547c1777f0ec3379d4f22d8b28306b.JPG

 

Hose from fuel cell goes through front firewall to Carter pump then to top side of surge tank, internal pump goes to Corvette filter/regulator, return goes back into surge tank, overflow from surge goes back to cell. Very accessible for quick servicing/repair. Disconnect the supply line to the filter, attach long hose to fuel container, turn on the Carter pump and can pump out the cell. Sorry for the dark fuzzy picture.

 

The filler for the fuel cell is at the bottom of the windshield and a funnel sits nicely in that for refueling directly from the jug. No spills but no open funnels allowed now. On the right under the blue grill is my rad ducting that goes up through the hood.

 

I didn't think to actually time how long my set-up takes to move 5 or 10 gallons but I've had no issues.

Edited by mender
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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Published specs aside, how far will that carter reliably lift fuel when installed in our application?

 I have mine mounted about 4 feet away from and about a foot higher than the top of my fuel cell, no problems.

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On 7/18/2018 at 1:05 PM, Team Infiniti said:

Published specs aside, how far will that carter reliably lift fuel when installed in our application?

 

Were I still an employ of a fuel pump manufacturer the official answer would always be that the pump must be mounted lower than the level of fuel in the tank, good CYA answer...

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