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Wing suspension setup


Ronh911
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I’m about to install a wing on my car and I have questions about suspension setup.

 

1. After installing the wing did you raise the ride height and leave spring rate the same?

2. Raise ride height and increase rear spring rate?

3. Leave ride height the same and increase rear spring rate?

4. Leave everything as is?

5. What about alignment settings,  if my wing is expected to provide 175lbs of downforce at 75mph do I add weight during the alignment?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

Ron

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2 hours ago, Ronh911 said:

I’m about to install a wing on my car and I have questions about suspension setup.

 

1. After installing the wing did you raise the ride height and leave spring rate the same?

2. Raise ride height and increase rear spring rate?

3. Leave ride height the same and increase rear spring rate?

4. Leave everything as is?

5. What about alignment settings,  if my wing is expected to provide 175lbs of downforce at 75mph do I add weight during the alignment?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

Ron

 

I hear you guys are fast enough, you should probably do all of the above except item 4.

 

I have no idea either.

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We just installed ours and went and tested. I can tell you - those are some fine questions I wish I'd have thought of :lol: :lol:

 

I am no expert (clearly) but we slapped it on there and went and tested just to see how it felt. Do you have a track close by that you can rent or run HDPE's with relative ease? We went to a Chin day, we got a pretty fair amount of track time but I still felt it wasn't enough time to play with multiple things. I hate throwing random guesses at it. If I were you I'd approach it like anything else - one change at a time. If you start monkeying around with spring rate and ride height before even testing it, you could inadvertently put yourself out in left field. Why are you adding a wing, is the car loose now? Is it twitchy? Are you running decent aero up front? If you are in the middle of a race and feel there is some detrimental effect from the wing, just take it off.

 

It might take more than one track day depending on track time and how long it takes you to adjust stuff:

 

run 1 - establish baseline, no wing, check susp. travel

run 2 - wing on, check susp. travel

run 3 - start changing stuff if needed

 

I can tell you it balanced out our car nicely, I don't feel the need to change anything else to compliment the wing (we have a medium(?) sized splitter). With testing with 2 drivers and wanting to test a couple of other unrelated things, we just didn't have the time to get in depth with the additional tweaks on the wing/susp. package, but it probably doesn't even need it. There was no perceived additional squat at speed, either seat-of-pants or visual from outside of car. Totally unscientific data, so I could be wrong.

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10 hours ago, Ronh911 said:

I’m about to install a wing on my car and I have questions about suspension setup.

 

1. After installing the wing did you raise the ride height and leave spring rate the same?

2. Raise ride height and increase rear spring rate?

3. Leave ride height the same and increase rear spring rate?

4. Leave everything as is?

5. What about alignment settings,  if my wing is expected to provide 175lbs of downforce at 75mph do I add weight during the alignment?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

Ron

Leave everything as-is, your active suspension system will compensate for any downforce-driven ride height changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_FW15C

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home made string pots are your friend.  find out what your starting point is, then add the wing.  Assuming you know your spring rates and they are linear, you can determine about how much DF you are actually making.  From there you can scale up/down for speed.  With that information you you can see if you are in the desirable camber range and wheel travel to make sure you are where you need/want to be.

 

The more data the better.  Do it at a range of steady state top speeds and wing angles.

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14 hours ago, Ronh911 said:

I’m about to install a wing on my car and I have questions about suspension setup.

 

1. After installing the wing did you raise the ride height and leave spring rate the same?

2. Raise ride height and increase rear spring rate?

3. Leave ride height the same and increase rear spring rate?

4. Leave everything as is?

5. What about alignment settings,  if my wing is expected to provide 175lbs of downforce at 75mph do I add weight during the alignment?

 

Thanks for any advice!

 

Ron

 

I did #4, and then .......

1594845_1.jpg

 

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I think you are misunderstanding how a wing works. On a airplane the wing provides lift and that is obviously a very important function.

 

However on a car its totally different, on a car the intention is not to provide lift. The purpose with a wing on a car is solely to look cool and attract chicks to your pit stall. So go to a track and experiment.

 

Hope it helps!

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9 hours ago, turbogrill said:

The purpose with a wing on a car is solely to look cool and attract chicks to your pit stall. 

 

That's the only reason I'm here.

 

(sadly, Stacey will not be the umbrella girl, nor will she allow me to sub-contract said activities...)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/24/2018 at 7:46 AM, Crank Yankers Racing said:

Testing is your friend. Make sure you have someone take pictures as well so you know what your car is doing in the corners. 

 

Startgreenfont/ Aero doesn't work at our speeds and you're only adding drag /greenfont

 

Can I correct/substantiate where I think you're going with this thought?

The aero does work but as with all things physics, you rarely (never) get something for free and there's often tradeoffs. Most cases where I see people add wings could be fixed with simple suspension adjustments/tuning. 

And yes, most aero 'enhancements' come with a drag increase. Some more than others, and in my opinion some are worth it at our power levels and some really aren't. The reason I say 'most' is that you can enhance your aero without bolting wings, splitters, (etc) to your car and have a lesser drag impact (or actually decrease drag).
 

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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18 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

Can I correct/substantiate where I think you're going with this thought?

The aero does work but as with all things physics, you rarely (never) get something for free and there's often tradeoffs. Most cases where I see people add wings could be fixed with simple suspension adjustments/tuning. 

And yes, most aero 'enhancements' come with a drag increase. Some more than others, and in my opinion some are worth it at our power levels and some really aren't. The reason I say 'most' is that you can enhance your aero without bolting wings, splitters, (etc) to your car and have a lesser drag impact (or actually decrease drag).
 

 

He's being sarcastic. Until about a year ago there was a pretty vocal subset on the forum that claimed we don't drive fast enough for aero to be effective. Tyler likes to make fun of them.

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Yeah, I was one of those and still hold my opinion that flipping the E30 trunk lid or bolting a 7' wide aluminum wing with a 30" cord on the roof of a 1.6L civic probably hurt more than helped.  Now that everyone is buying $500+ wind tunnel tested wing setups and running 200+hp cars topping over 130mph aero is going to be much more effective vs the inherent drag.

 

But you know, its always nice to have a troll as a moderator.  Its like the ghost of JC past.

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Pointing out that bad aero is bad isn't wrong. Your statement is correct.

 

There were people that actually said aerodynamic devices wouldn't have a measurable impact at our speeds, since apparently at 40mph a Cessna can fly but racecar wings can't produce downforce. Those are the people we like to poke at.

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2 hours ago, Bremsen said:

 

But you know, its always nice to have a troll as a moderator.  Its like the ghost of JC past.

Im not sure if you meant that to be pretty harsh.

 

Tyler does have the #greenfont written on the post so it was obviously sarcastic.

 

Maybe I'm missing something...

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2 hours ago, Bremsen said:

Yeah, I was one of those and still hold my opinion that flipping the E30 trunk lid or bolting a 7' wide aluminum wing with a 30" cord on the roof of a 1.6L civic probably hurt more than helped.  Now that everyone is buying $500+ wind tunnel tested wing setups and running 200+hp cars topping over 130mph aero is going to be much more effective vs the inherent drag.

 

But you know, its always nice to have a troll as a moderator.  Its like the ghost of JC past.

 

Sort of a tangent, 

 

If you go back to prior rules and cost of materials per sqft, do you think the aero comes as cheap as today? If not it would tip the scales, and i think a 2 or 3x cost increase in aero parts would make most of them not worth it.....

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Im not sure if you meant that to be pretty harsh.

 

Tyler does have the #greenfont written on the post so it was obviously sarcastic.

 

Maybe I'm missing something...

Hopefully Bremsen was just kidding. Hard to tell a person's mood or real intentions sometimes in cyberspace. :) (I thought it was funny myself, but if he's serious - oh well....) Still funny if he was kidding - and even more so if he was serious - which supports Tyler's green font.

Edited by mcoppola
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2 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Sort of a tangent, 

 

If you go back to prior rules and cost of materials per sqft, do you think the aero comes as cheap as today? If not it would tip the scales, and i think a 2 or 3x cost increase in aero parts would make most of them not worth it.....

probably true, but also likely true of most things in the rule book.  Virtually no engine swap would be worth doing,  well other than a v6 in an MR2......

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4 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Sort of a tangent, 

 

If you go back to prior rules and cost of materials per sqft, do you think the aero comes as cheap as today? If not it would tip the scales, and i think a 2 or 3x cost increase in aero parts would make most of them not worth it.....

depending on the device, its close.  We were charged 8pts for our home made wooden wing.  But we were charged like 12-14 IIRC for the wood splitter and plastic air dam.  I image the floors/diffusers would be much more at a sq ft material charge

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Course by course the setup changes differently with aero. I recently tested at a course that had some significant bumps on a straight (when already at speed), and with the compression from aero added to the bumps, I had to go to much stiffer springs and different shocks to keep from harsh bottoming. We get compression on straightaways from aero, a significant amount. Before this recent test, never had bumps on a straight so bottoming never was an issue even though aero was compressing suspension/eating up bump travel.

 

Aero 100% works at our speeds, and reduces lap times significantly if done even remotely correctly. Using accelerometers, we see higher g forces in faster turns with aero than we do in slower turns.

 

I expect homemade wings and splitters would be well worth the points on any course with multiple high speed sweepers.

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1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Im not sure if you meant that to be pretty harsh.

 

Tyler does have the #greenfont written on the post so it was obviously sarcastic.

 

Maybe I'm missing something...

 

Wow, that comment kinda blew up in my face.

 

Yes and no.  No because I guess I didn't think it was all that harsh (I mean, I think we've all called people A LOT worse) and #greenfont.  I was somewhat sarcastic.  If he feels it is, he can certainly edit the thread.  I have no personal beef with the guy or anything and if its warranted I'm more than willing to apologize.  Tyler looks like a big boy and should be able to handle some criticism.  Yes because he has posted the same line on virtually every post referencing aero recently.  First time is funny, 10th is just being a troll, IMHO.  And because I tend to hold those who are given responsibility to a slightly higher standard than the rest of us knuckleheads.  JC used to antagonize a lot and it turned many people off.  The series literally lost teams because of forum posts by leadership.  I think that something he should consider before posting.  He's even on the board now, right?

 

58 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

If you go back to prior rules and cost of materials per sqft, do you think the aero comes as cheap as today? If not it would tip the scales, and i think a 2 or 3x cost increase in aero parts would make most of them not worth it.....

 

No and that was definitely another part of it.  A plywood splitter is probably 10pts of wood, but that doesn't include the mounts or air dam.  A homemade fiberglass rear wing would easily be 2-3x the current points hit when you factor the uprights, end plates, etc.  This discussion was also back in like 2014-15 when the E36 was considered a crazy outlier by hp/wt standards.  I don't think its even on the radar now.

 

Ok, Back to the original poster's question.  Would adding the approximate downforce in static weight be a good way to determine if suspension changes are needed?  I have a couple big friends I can shove into the hatch if needed.

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23 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

Can I correct/substantiate where I think you're going with this thought?

The aero does work but as with all things physics, you rarely (never) get something for free and there's often tradeoffs. Most cases where I see people add wings could be fixed with simple suspension adjustments/tuning. 

And yes, most aero 'enhancements' come with a drag increase. Some more than others, and in my opinion some are worth it at our power levels and some really aren't. The reason I say 'most' is that you can enhance your aero without bolting wings, splitters, (etc) to your car and have a lesser drag impact (or actually decrease drag).
 

I see what you're saying here and since I am not an engineer by trade but just a banker I do what I know and what works for my car.  Not every car is the same and there is always two ways to skin a cat.

 

 

4 hours ago, LAMR2 said:

 

He's being sarcastic. Until about a year ago there was a pretty vocal subset on the forum that claimed we don't drive fast enough for aero to be effective. Tyler likes to make fun of them.

I am glad someone realized I was sarcastic.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bremsen said:

Yeah, I was one of those and still hold my opinion that flipping the E30 trunk lid or bolting a 7' wide aluminum wing with a 30" cord on the roof of a 1.6L civic probably hurt more than helped.  Now that everyone is buying $500+ wind tunnel tested wing setups and running 200+hp cars topping over 130mph aero is going to be much more effective vs the inherent drag.

 

But you know, its always nice to have a troll as a moderator.  Its like the ghost of JC past.

The ghost of JC past - it is like the Christmas Story with Tiny Tim all over again.  

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Im not sure if you meant that to be pretty harsh.

 

Tyler does have the #greenfont written on the post so it was obviously sarcastic.

 

Maybe I'm missing something...

Usually I am on my phone so I can't get to the green font from there and sometimes I forget to put my green font in # or /begingreenfont

 

59 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Hopefully Bremsen was just kidding. Hard to tell a person's mood or real intentions sometimes in cyberspace. :) (I thought it was funny myself, but if he's serious - oh well....) Still funny if he was kidding - and even more so if he was serious - which supports Tyler's green font.

I think the forums are helpful in some ways and some ways they are entertaining.  I try to pick out the helpful posts vs where I can be fun on here.  

 

11 minutes ago, Bremsen said:

 

Wow, that comment kinda blew up in my face.

 

Yes and no.  No because I guess I didn't think it was all that harsh (I mean, I think we've all called people A LOT worse) and #greenfont.  I was somewhat sarcastic.  If he feels it is, he can certainly edit the thread.  I have no personal beef with the guy or anything and if its warranted I'm more than willing to apologize.  Tyler looks like a big boy and should be able to handle some criticism.  Yes because he has posted the same line on virtually every post referencing aero recently.  First time is funny, 10th is just being a troll, IMHO.  And because I tend to hold those who are given responsibility to a slightly higher standard than the rest of us knuckleheads.  JC used to antagonize a lot and it turned many people off.  The series literally lost teams because of forum posts by leadership.  I think that something he should consider before posting.  He's even on the board now, right?

 

 

No and that was definitely another part of it.  A plywood splitter is probably 10pts of wood, but that doesn't include the mounts or air dam.  A homemade fiberglass rear wing would easily be 2-3x the current points hit when you factor the uprights, end plates, etc.  This discussion was also back in like 2014-15 when the E36 was considered a crazy outlier by hp/wt standards.  I don't think its even on the radar now.

 

Ok, Back to the original poster's question.  Would adding the approximate downforce in static weight be a good way to determine if suspension changes are needed?  I have a couple big friends I can shove into the hatch if needed.

 

I'm not mad at all with your comment.  If you have not met me in person you will know I'm a pretty easy going person who supports this series 100% and I don't get mad at much things at all.  I handle criticism a lot; I ask rental drivers to really lay it on when they send me a post race email so my car can get better.  I'm a banker by trade and I guess someone who gets dirty in their shop at night.  I do enough research to help with my own car and luckily I have met a lot of great people in this series and racing in general who have helped me dial in my car.  BTW I don't go around the forums editing posts. I try and keep the peace and move and hide threads.  

 

Alright I'm going back to working on 2019 Sponsors for the series; back to the original programming.  

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3 hours ago, Bremsen said:

 

 

Ok, Back to the original poster's question.  Would adding the approximate downforce in static weight be a good way to determine if suspension changes are needed?  I have a couple big friends I can shove into the hatch if needed.

 

No. The downforce acts very different than sprung weight because the effects on CG/ cornering force (grip acting on weight). Not to mention the variable nature of the downforce with speed. 

 

Given a choice between a 2500 lb car with 500 total lbs of downforce and a 3000 lb car, everyone should choose the former if grip and power are held constant.

 

All this is just my $0.02, I only play with cars as a hobby (at this point).

 

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