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Bill Strong

2018 Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park Results

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I agree it needs to be explicit (as @FlorahDorah stated quite well) and equally enforced.  If I run into you at Pitt we can chat as I'm not quite convinced there's an advantage gained over the running field.  Think about the team that happens to pit with a flat tire just as an extended FCY comes out... the team behind the wall under red doesn't lose places, but they certainly don't gain anything back, as they're still going to rejoin at the rear of the pack once things go back to yellow.  My opinion, no experience outside of Chump/Champ to draw on here..  

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I mean wikipedia and basically anything when you google red flag has stuff like "repair work in the pits or garage area is typically prohibited" it's not like chump made this up.

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9 minutes ago, theblue said:

I mean wikipedia and basically anything when you google red flag has stuff like "repair work in the pits or garage area is typically prohibited" it's not like chump made this up.

"except in non-points paying races" but I guess since we've technically got a points qualifier for the national championship race that's irrelevant.  Never said they made it up, I just said it wasn't always applied to Champcar paddocks, and nothing I've seen told me that changed.  Until Saturday anyway.

Edited by Gearhead_42

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what they mean by that is in cases where you're not racing for anything so there is no advantage.   if you replace a motor under red.  then I have to replace one under green, you have a clear advantage.

 

don't get me wrong, plenty of teams work under red in the garage, it's part of the game.

Edited by theblue

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36 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

The word RED shows up twice in the BCCR:  Once referring to he color of the kill switch, the other using the brand name of Red Line water wetter.

Rules and Regulations:  Flag reference

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So here's my thinking: I would rather race you on the track than in the paddock. Outside of a red flag situation our team will gladly help you get back on track as soon as possible. I can see being.... um.... flexible about working in the paddock during a red flag situation.

 

However.

 

That is clearly going to be one big can of worms with you competitive beings. Somebody will whine. So it's going to be something like PUY. Maybe you get away with it, maybe not. But if you get caught, don't have a hissy fit. Red means the race has stopped and all work must stop for it to be fair across the board. 

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1 hour ago, FlorahDorah said:

So here's my thinking: I would rather race you on the track than in the paddock. Outside of a red flag situation our team will gladly help you get back on track as soon as possible. I can see being.... um.... flexible about working in the paddock during a red flag situation.

 

However.

 

That is clearly going to be one big can of worms with you competitive beings. Somebody will whine. So it's going to be something like PUY. Maybe you get away with it, maybe not. But if you get caught, don't have a hissy fit. Red means the race has stopped and all work must stop for it to be fair across the board. 

 

I'm with Florah on this, VRG would rather race you on the track then in the paddock.  If your car is already in the paddock before the red flag I would be fine with you continuing to work on your vehicle.  I can't imagine Champcar being able to enforce this rule at one of the 100+ car events.  Even with a loud speaker system I know when I'm working on the car I'm not listening(most of the time I can't understand what their saying either).

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3 hours ago, FlorahDorah said:

 But if you get caught, don't have a hissy fit.

 

Do I get to have a hissy fit?  I was next in the car and had to listen to my teammates call me a cheater for 10 minutes while I waited to go back on track..  That entitles me to...  Well, something, anyway.  Maybe not a hissy fit, but at least some whining?

 

:)

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1 hour ago, Wonkothesane said:

 

Do I get to have a hissy fit?  I was next in the car and had to listen to my teammates call me a cheater for 10 minutes while I waited to go back on track..  That entitles me to...  Well, something, anyway.  Maybe not a hissy fit, but at least some whining?

 

:)

 

Sure. I just won't start the timer until you stop. 🙂

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I think that if the red flag is out, all work on the cars comes to a halt at the facility. What if there is a fire in the paddock? We red flag the race to allow fire to deal with the issue at hand.

Guess what we are editing now? The BCCR :)
I'll look that stuff up and propose it to the BOD and TAC


 

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Read the IMSA rule on red flag,  then go to article 47 about race stoppage in the IMSA rule book.  

 

 A red flag stops the event except the race clock if it's a timed race.   To continue to work on a car during a red flag  absolutely does give an advantage to that team.  You really need to think it through.  

 

Picture a car in their pit box fueling or changing tyres before the red was displayed while the others cars are stopped and no one can touch the car.   Geez this really isn't hard to figure out guys.  It's Always been like that in racing when a red flag  is shown.

 

I can see where this needs to be inserted into the rules and worded correctly and announced at the drivers meeting at every event.

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How CAN'T it be an advantage? If you're working on your car during a red flag, you will get back on track sooner than if you have to stop working, and then continue work once the track goes back to yellow or green. You'll get back on track much sooner if work can continue through the red flag time. @DEE DEE explained it correctly.

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Working in the pit lane for a routine stop is one thing, but if you've already gone to the paddock before the red flag I think you're already at a disadvantage. 

 

Secondly, how does this get enforced?  A paddock the size of VIR, you can't ever hope to run around and find all the cars there and tell people to stop.  And then monitor them to know that they stay stopped.  

 

Those trophies at the end of the day are cool and all, but it is amateur racing.  Quoting an IMSA rule is a little out of context here.

 

I talked to one of the drivers of the team who started this thread, he told me what happened.  They were changing the diff on the car, for one they didn't bring, they had to go source one first.  Did they get an advantage over me since I did all my repairs under green?  Sure, but neither of us were in the top 5 as soon as we came in on the Jerdan.

 

Driver clock got reset, drivers could swap out, if no work is to happen, shouldn't these two items also not be allowed?

 

So it is an un-enforceable rule that penalizes a team that is already suffering from bad luck and is inconsistent.  Just what we need. 

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5 minutes ago, MMiskoe said:

Working in the pit lane for a routine stop is one thing, but if you've already gone to the paddock before the red flag I think you're already at a disadvantage. 

 

Secondly, how does this get enforced?  A paddock the size of VIR, you can't ever hope to run around and find all the cars there and tell people to stop.  And then monitor them to know that they stay stopped.  

 

Those trophies at the end of the day are cool and all, but it is amateur racing.  Quoting an IMSA rule is a little out of context here.

 

I talked to one of the drivers of the team who started this thread, he told me what happened.  They were changing the diff on the car, for one they didn't bring, they had to go source one first.  Did they get an advantage over me since I did all my repairs under green?  Sure, but neither of us were in the top 5 as soon as we came in on the Jerdan.

 

Driver clock got reset, drivers could swap out, if no work is to happen, shouldn't these two items also not be allowed?

 

So it is an un-enforceable rule that penalizes a team that is already suffering from bad luck and is inconsistent.  Just what we need. 

I simply mentioned the IMSA rule because it was easy for everyone to look up and read.   I wasn't trying to compare IMSA with ChampCar.  In road racing the flag no matter what color should have the same meaning.   The red flag has had the same meaning for 35 yrs that I am aware of.  And it's not hard to enforce and VIR is an easy paddock to buzz around.

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6 minutes ago, MMiskoe said:

Working in the pit lane for a routine stop is one thing, but if you've already gone to the paddock before the red flag I think you're already at a disadvantage. 

 

Those trophies at the end of the day are cool and all, but it is amateur racing.  Quoting an IMSA rule is a little out of context here.

 

So it is an un-enforceable rule that penalizes a team that is already suffering from bad luck and is inconsistent.  Just what we need. 

^^^Some good points are made above. I'm usually a stickler for rules, but I can understand why the team would be upset. Perhaps this is done for safety reasons. Somebody mentioned forwarding this issue to the TAC group. If it is, we will discuss it and look at all the reasoning, and pros and cons behind the ruling, just as we've been doing on the 2019 BCCR.

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53 minutes ago, Gearhead_42 said:

We get it. You feel it's an advantage. Champcar will clarify the specifics of the rule, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction.

I have been caught out in the same situation as you.  Just so you know I am not complaining about your situation I would like a more clear ruling about his also.

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1 hour ago, DEE DEE said:

I simply mentioned the IMSA rule because it was easy for everyone to look up and read.   I wasn't trying to compare IMSA with ChampCar.  In road racing the flag no matter what color should have the same meaning.   The red flag has had the same meaning for 35 yrs that I am aware of.  And it's not hard to enforce and VIR is an easy paddock to buzz around.

I agree. I probably circled the VIR paddock 50 times over 2 days on one of our pit bikes. It takes a few minutes. 

And within 30-seconds of a red flag, the track and pit go quiet. So any announcements could be made in the paddock to ensure those teams stop working on their race car. 

Regardless of anecdotal examples, it IS an advantage if you're working on your car in the paddock while the rest of the field is stopped on the track and in the pit. 

S. 

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Don't forget to send out texts and automated phone calls to the teams that might have left the track to work on their cars... We've literally left the track to work on the car and then drove it back to the track. 

 

Wouldn't want us to have an "advantage" after driving 20 min each way and working on the car for 3 hours. Rules are rules! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Edited by pintodave
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Oh! We should also have a rule on no ECU flashing, that will be another easy one to enforce.

 

Sorry. I have not had my morning coffee yet and this is ridiculous.

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All of you that are talking about the rules not allowing you to work on your cars under red....

 

That's how it is and always has been in racing.  

 

If you think champcar changed this rule or handled it a different way in the past, I would argue that you are mistaken.   This has always been how it was handled.  

 

Should it be in the rulebook, yes.  Should champcar have a different rule than every other race series where it concerns a safety flag?  I'm thinking no.

 

Take the time to have a glass of water and get a sammich.  Clean up your tools. Think about the next steps of whatever you are repairing.  You can do pretty much anything except physically touch the car with a tool.

 

 

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Is working on the car under red flag an advantage? Absolutely yes.

 

Should this rule be adopted word-for-word because "that's how every other series does it forever"? No. 

 

First: 

there is absolutely an enforcement issue. 

 

Second: 

Champcar is not every other racing series, professional or amateur (frankly, I think most of us would agree that is a good thing). So let's think outside the box a little. Put a time limit on it - if you've been off track for more than an hour (or whatever number makes sense) then you can work on your car in the paddock under red (should be enforceable by looking at last lap data in timing in scoring and certainly not any less enforceable than the rule itself).

 

You are telling me it is right to take a team that payed $1400+ dollars, traveled from who knows where, that breaks a transmission in hour #2 and is thrashing for 2+ hours just to get the car back on track just so the rest of their team can "live the dream" and turn laps is a threat to win or is gaining "an advantage" at that point? Is that the message we want to send to new teams who want to partake in this absolute madness? We all spend thousands of dollars per event to race for zero cash and some cool trophies. To answer the question of garage & paddock safety - if we are working on the car and the team next to us goes up in flames, pretty sure we are going to know it before track officials and most likely would turn into the first responders. 

 

I just think there is a better solution or compromise other than "thats the way we've always done it".

 

 

Edited by pintodave
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What bugs me the most is: they were told to stop, stopped, and got a penalty anyway. A ten minute hold penalty sounds like a good compromise to negate any competitive advantage (as it would for breaking parc-ferme, but that's another cross to bear), but since both the rule and the punishment are not in the rulebook, this leads to the appearance of arbitrary rules enforcement. Those guys lost the race the second they went behind the wall, you don't have to keep messing with them.

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