mender Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) With the recent change in shock rules, is it time to rethink the 2X part? The cheap domestics have always struggled to get even a moderately decent shock while the expensive sport sedans easily had access to Bilstein B8s and such. That wasn't all that much of an advantage until the +/- 0.25" spring rule made essentially race springs available to the 500 point cars, resulting in a large step forward for those formerly restricted cars and leaving the cheap cars (remember what Chump used to claim?) even further behind. Now there is talk about piling more points on certain domestics in order to keep them from having a podium presence. The domestics can finally use the same shocks and accompanying spring rates as the expensive sport sedans but at a 100 point premium. That's still quite a cost yet it seems to be ignored in the clamour to penalize certain cars and maintain the status quo. Would a better system for evaluating VPi be one that takes into account this and other differences in using the same part on a different chassis? For instance, X points for a strut front suspension vs Y points for a SLA front suspension? If one car can use B8s because 2X, should that car get 100 points more in their chassis portion of the VPi than a car that can't? Or just get rid of the 2X rule and allow all cars the same options, adjusting VPi accordingly? Obviously not going to happen this year but is this something that could/should be considered in the future? Edited October 4, 2018 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technical Advisory Committee Andrew D Johnson Posted October 4, 2018 Technical Advisory Committee Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 I think all the 2x rules should be looked at. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBraden Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 This makes sense to me. But like everything rules-ish in this series, there will be slippery slope arguments will start very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 The shock part of the 2X rule is the last part that hasn't been effectively nullified by rule changes in recent years, so the recent change in shock rules could and maybe should be the last nail in the coffin of the 2X rule. The move from cost based to points based valuations has been steady and IMO this would move Champ forward to a more logical and inclusive basis for VPi. There will always be arguments for keeping an advantage from the people who benefit the most but maybe it's time to look beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDChristianson Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 Miata’s should be able to use they new Penske SM package for no points. Just cus. Actually for driver comfort miata’s Should get double adjustable for free they are really bumpy little cars I think we’d be safer and less tired with better shocks. Green that all up if you’d like 5 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) Brainstorming ideas, my thought would be to make a list of approved "non oe replacement" shocks, like this Bilstein B6, B8 and HD Koni STR and Red (non adjustable) KYB (whatever brand is non adjustable) etc. I don't care how much they cost, if the product line is the same. Edited October 4, 2018 by Black Magic 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavro Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 40 minutes ago, Black Magic said: My thought would be to make a list of approved "non oe replacement" shocks, like this Bilstein B6, B8 and HD Koni STR and Red (non adjustable) KYB (whatever brand is non adjustable) etc. I don't care how much they cost, if the product line is the same. Why not just say "non-adjustable, stock configuration replacement shocks" - that's basically what you've listed. Coilovers and anything adjustable are points. Upgraded non-adjustable stock configuration components are free. I'm speaking from BMW land so I don't know what it's like with other makes but for us, anything above a certain price point and performance level is adjustable and/or a coilover. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Magic Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, gavro said: Why not just say "non-adjustable, stock configuration replacement shocks" - that's basically what you've listed. Coilovers and anything adjustable are points. Upgraded non-adjustable stock configuration components are free. I'm speaking from BMW land so I don't know what it's like with other makes but for us, anything above a certain price point and performance level is adjustable and/or a coilover. For some cars non adjustable stock fitting shocks would be 7150 penskes, which don't scream "budget racing series" Just my opinion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommytipover Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Black Magic said: Brainstorming ideas, my thought would be to make a list of approved "non oe replacement" shocks, like this Bilstein B6, B8 and HD Koni STR and Red (non adjustable) KYB (whatever brand is non adjustable) etc. I don't care how much they cost, if the product line is the same. Came here to say this. I'm pretty sure this is the de facto rule at present time. No need to over think it or get creative with your shopping. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblue Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 @mender you picked a mid engine low weight car with a downside of parts. that said, can't you get some cartridge struts and adapt them in? what for your platform would you buy that you can't have right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, theblue said: @mender you picked a mid engine low weight car with a downside of parts. that said, can't you get some cartridge struts and adapt them in? what for your platform would you buy that you can't have right now? Just to clear something up: Fieros are heavier than most people assume, about 200-300 lbs heavier than E30s in race trim. It's much closer to a heavyweight than a lightweight. And yes, I've stripped the easy weight out and some of the not so easy weight. The front shocks are $38 each and rear struts are $69 each for stockers; what would you suggest? Edited October 4, 2018 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Black Magic said: Brainstorming ideas, my thought would be to make a list of approved "non oe replacement" shocks, like this Bilstein B6, B8 and HD Koni STR and Red (non adjustable) KYB (whatever brand is non adjustable) etc. I don't care how much they cost, if the product line is the same. This is what I'm thinking as well. Not too hard to standardize. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblue Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, mender said: Just to clear something up: Fieros are heavier than most people assume, about 200-300 lbs heavier than E30s in race trim. It's much closer to a heavyweight than a lightweight. And yes, I've stripped the easy weight out and some of the not so easy weight. The front shocks are $38 each and rear struts are $69 each for stockers; what would you suggest? why not this: https://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=Bilstein&model=B8+Performance+Plus+Strut+Cartridge&group=B8+HD+Shock&cat=Shocks (with a can of black spray paint) Edited October 4, 2018 by theblue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron_e Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 The often quoted stock replacements for a Mustang are the KYB Excel G's: look at that, LMR has a kit with two struts and two shocks for $186.99... try buying four Bilstein's for less than $373.98. The kit is the only price I could find on a quick search as it looks like nobody is stocking the Excel G for the Mustang anymore. Both Napa and O'Reilly listed but when you look at the strut it says it doesn't fit, same with Summit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 26 minutes ago, theblue said: why not this: https://www.tirerack.com/suspension/suspension.jsp?make=Bilstein&model=B8+Performance+Plus+Strut+Cartridge&group=B8+HD+Shock&cat=Shocks (with a can of black spray paint) I'm a Boy Scout when it comes to rules... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, gavro said: I'm speaking from BMW land so I don't know what it's like with other makes but for us, anything above a certain price point and performance level is adjustable and/or a coilover. Other makes don't even get close to a Bilstein of any stripe let alone adjustable. 1 hour ago, tommytipover said: Came here to say this. I'm pretty sure this is the de facto rule at present time. No need to over think it or get creative with your shopping. Could this be another instance of the rulebook needing to catch up with what's happening at the track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblue Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 I'd support fixed off the shelf struts under $400 being legal for any car. I've seen a lot more coilovers recently on podium cars so the thought that you can't have a bilstein insert is crazy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavro Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, theblue said: I'd support fixed off the shelf struts under $400 being legal for any car. I've seen a lot more coilovers recently on podium cars so the thought that you can't have a bilstein insert is crazy. Makes sense to me - although I might drop that to $300/strut, $200/shock, which based on my quick research is in line with the current 2X limit for a 500 point E36. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, gavro said: Makes sense to me - although I might drop that to $300/strut, $200/shock, which based on my quick research is in line with the current 2X limit for a 500 point E36. Not saying this is a bad thing, but keep in mind that puts a lot of circle track shocks in the field of play. Bilstein and others have whole ranges of generic, sealed, non adjustable shocks with varying, published valving available. Maybe have something like: Shocks/Struts: -KYB Excel G, Monroe, and Bilstein B4, Sachs ("OE ride replacement") = 0pts -nonadjustable, sealed units under $400 /each = 10 points -adjustable (including rebuildable/revalavable) under $400 for 25? I have a hard time including B6's and B8's in "free"..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Wittenauer Racing said: I have a hard time including B6's and B8's in "free"..... Pretty sure there will be push-back on this from the teams with the expensive sports sedans that have free access to those shocks under the present 2X rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jab31169 Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) is this the part where I say something about you picked your platform something yada yada....I cant remember the rest. Like it was stated earlier, I would have a hard time believing any team would protest/get butthurt over anything that wasn't a coil over. Those of us with these expensive sports sedans that have access to these cheap ultra performance bilsteins really don't care about those cheap "domestics" (insert greenish hue over first and last sentence) Edited October 4, 2018 by Jab31169 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wittenauer Racing Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, mender said: Pretty sure there will be push-back on this from the teams with the expensive sports sedans that have free access to those shocks under the present 2X rule. Meh, they just got free diff's and super cheap subframes, they should have the points for shocks now Or we just go open suspension but move tires back to 300 treadwear Edited October 4, 2018 by Wittenauer Racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 34 minutes ago, Jab31169 said: is this the part where I say something about you picked your platform something yada yada....I cant remember the rest. Like it was stated earlier, I would have a hard time believing any team would protest/get butthurt over anything that wasn't a coil over. Those of us with these expensive sports sedans that have access to these cheap ultra performance bilsteins really don't care about those cheap "domestics" (insert greenish hue over first and last sentence) And I reply that when I picked my platform I was allowed to run the set of Konis that got taken off when the rules changed. That being said, just for fun I put Koni stickers on my KYBs to see if anyone would notice. We won our next race and - nothing was said. I was so disappointed! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABR-Glen Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, mender said: And I reply that when I picked my platform I was allowed to run the set of Konis that got taken off when the rules changed. That being said, just for fun I put Koni stickers on my KYBs to see if anyone would notice. We won our next race and - nothing was said. I was so disappointed! When did the 2X shock rule change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mender Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said: When did the 2X shock rule change? After 2013. Not sure when the drill and fill shock rule took effect but I think it was around the time the 2X rule was changed to cover more than just the brakes (excluding E36s, they had to use stock brakes). Page 18 of the 2013 BCR - Rev 1.2 4.4.4.3 Non-exempt components and their minimum values: 4.4.4.3.1. Aftermarket shocks or struts: minimum $15/corner Right below the verbage that cautioned "... or try to apply flat-black paint over Penske shocks. How stupid do you think we are?" Edited October 5, 2018 by mender Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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